When Christian Doesn’t Mean Christlike: Dating, Faith, and Authenticity

In this episode of the UnYoked Podcast, Todd Turner and Jessica Kastner dive deep into the challenges of dating as a Christian after divorce, focusing on how to vet someone’s faith. In the digital age, where claiming "Christian" on dating apps is as easy as checking a box, how do you truly discern if someone's faith is genuine?

Through personal stories, practical advice, and Biblical insights, Todd and Jessica share how to recognize red flags, ask the right questions, and ensure that you're aligned with a partner who truly shares your Christian values. Tune in for tips on how to avoid heartbreak, spot empty claims, and find someone genuinely walking the same faith-filled path.

Key Topics Discussed:

• The challenge of defining "Christian" in the digital dating world
• How to vet faith early in the dating process
• Recognizing the difference between cultural Christianity and true faith
• How to discern the gospel and grace in a partner's life
• The importance of shared Biblical views and prayer in a relationship

Transcript

Todd Turner (00:00)
Dating after divorce is tough enough, but when you throw dating apps into the mix, it can feel like you're swimming in a sea of profiles and empty claims. I'm a Christian, they say, but what does that really mean? Many Christian singles assume that if somebody claims faith, their relationship will naturally align. But that assumption can lead to heartbreak or worse. In today's episode,

Jessica Kastner and I are tackling the unique challenges of vetting Christian singles in a digital age. We'll walk you how to spot red flags and ask the right questions and wisely discern someone's walk. Plus, we'll discuss how to bring your own faith into the dating conversation early and what to do when Christian doesn't always mean Christ-like. Stick with us and you'll walk away with clear steps to avoid being misled.

and find someone truly aligned with your values. Welcome to the show, Jessica.

Jess (00:52)
Thanks so great to be back. Thanks for having me Todd. I can't wait to talk about this. It's going to feel like a therapy. I'm going to really refrain.

Todd Turner (00:55)
this is gonna...

I totally agree. I

have been really excited. I know I'm probably excited about every episode or I wouldn't do it. Right. But this one, I don't think I've ever taken more notes to look at. So I'm to be cheating because I just wrote down so many things that. Yeah. So let's talk about the problem.

Jess (01:11)
⁓

Boy, well I'm not gonna do it with no, so we'll see.

Todd Turner (01:23)
Now, I don't want to limit this to dating apps because I know you're not on dating apps right now. I'm not either, but I'm going to say we're going to jump from there because that is the place when you're online that most dating apps allow somebody to say I'm a Christian or not. You're allowed to put your religious preference if you will. I don't like it that way. It may work that way, but so someone puts Christian. Well, you can choose. I only want to date Christians and it'll only show you

Jess (01:26)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:52)
Christians back. And I'm just going to be honest, it's a thing me and my friends do. We take pictures, we take screenshots of people who will say, Christian spiritually, and then they're wearing a bikini and they got the Cleveland shot. And you're like, what? What is this?

Jess (02:10)
Totally women do the same

thing and same thing with the guys. It's just like Christian, but yeah, which we'll talk about later, but yeah.

Todd Turner (02:20)
All the evidence

does not scream that, they put it there. yeah, it's a phenomenon of believers looking for other believers, and some of them will categorize themselves as a Christian, and our job is to say, well, what do you mean by that? And I think that's what this episode is about, is like, what do you mean when you say Christian? Because we all come to it with different lenses on what that means to us.

Jess (02:23)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (02:44)
And there hence is the problem because so much time is wasted in dating someone to find out, we're not really talking about the same religion at all.

Jess (02:53)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that defines

the problem. I think the problem is they have those boxes. They're not an atheist. They're not a Buddhist. So most people, so I live in New England, Catholicism, it's like 80 % Catholic here. So it's really more of a, like a cultural thing. People say they're Christian because, yeah, I believe in Jesus, but they go to church. Most people around here, honestly, go to church on Easter, Christmas, and that's it. ⁓ So I feel like it has made me,

Just because of the problem have to hone in we're almost more on your defenses because the word Christian I say I read an article on says most people United States would call themselves Christians if you gave them ⁓ But if in our definition of Christianity, which we talk about in a minute, it's not it's a way of life Like it's an actual lifestyle. So if you go into I don't even like like born-again Christian non-denominational creation I just go into the meaning of Christian in Hebrew is

people say it's either mini Christ or follower of Jesus. So to me, it's following. So that's an active, that's an active thing, right? It's like you are actively participating in your religion, but you're just following Jesus. So you take what some people, most people around here would call Christian and what believers, let's just say believers, real Christians consider what being a Christian is. It's like,

Todd Turner (03:55)
follower of the way. That's right.

Jess (04:16)
I mean, it's night and We're not even talking about the same thing. So I think that's the first step to take is identifying the problem. It's like you kind of have to delve deeper. can't, on the abs, you can't just assume a guy is a Christian or a woman is a Christian just because they clicked that box. And I feel bad for y'all down there because down south, I think it's much more of a culture thing like the Bible belt, you know. ⁓

Todd Turner (04:40)
You are 100 % correct. So I'm going to

echo what you said. And that is there's a phenomenon, whether it's in the North or the South, that I'm not a Hindu, I'm not a Buddhist, I'm not a Mormon, I must be a Christian. And so that people just put that because they're like, well, I'm not nothing. I do believe there's a God. Maybe I don't know what that is. That's right.

Jess (04:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, Christmas, believe in Jesus, right? That's what,

yeah.

Todd Turner (05:08)
And then I also, we're going to go and poke, I'm sure we're to ruffle feathers today. There's just no way around it because everybody has a different definition. So people are going to get a little offended. But I do believe that when there's Catholicism, I'm always wondering, because there are Christians who are Catholic and there are Catholics who are Christians, but not every Catholic is a Christian.

Jess (05:16)
Yeah.

Totally. So I was raised, my dad was a pastor. He considered Catholicism a cult and he would like evangelize to the Catholic. So I've come a long way because now I've known true Jesus loving Catholics. Like my grandmother ended up getting saved. So she called herself a born again Catholic where it's like, okay, they love the rituals. It's comforting to them. I don't think there's anything, but

In general, feel like it's very ritualistic, Catholicism. And unfortunately, I think that replaces your relationship with God and people think that's all it is. I've come a long way in how I would have never even probably dated a Catholic, which sounds so judging and terrible. But I do think that's an extra layer. When you talk about Catholicism, I just think you have to maybe dig a little deeper.

Todd Turner (06:12)
It is another layer, so much so that if somebody doesn't say they're a Christian, if they say they're a Catholic and they don't say they're a Christian, I swipe left because I'm like, you're probably a Catholic. And I'm like, I don't want to date a Catholic. I want to date a Catholic, a Christian who may go to a Catholic church.

Jess (06:30)
Yeah, there is a difference.

point.

Todd Turner (06:34)
Yeah, so that one's a little tricky. Okay, so we've identified the problem and the challenge. So let's just start with the easy ones. I think let's just pretend we're talking on an app or first date, right? Your early communication, I think an easy way to vet out someone's walk, what their definition of Christian is, is asking them about church. Where do you go to church? Do you go to church? All that.

Here's one of the problems as a guy. If you ask somebody where they go to church, and it depends on what size town you live in, some people are reluctant to tell you because they're like, they don't want you creeping on their church. They don't want to tell you where they go to church. So it's like, yeah, I go to a church or I'm faithful to my church or I really love my church, but you can't really ask without looking like a creep.

Jess (07:02)
you

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess.

Yeah. ⁓

Agree. Yeah, I feel like I wouldn't either and I haven't been asked like which church because same thing. I live in a small town and yeah. ⁓

Todd Turner (07:30)
Yeah, why would

you want to admit your stomping grounds were somebody who you might not even be talking to in 24 hours now knows they can find you every Sunday morning at 930 at that church.

Jess (07:39)
Yeah,

let's take church out of it though because I feel like even if you do go to church, my problem is always like, they go to church because I live in a predominantly, sorry, predominantly Catholic region. ⁓ People do go to church. think sadly, maybe it's a societal thing or gives you a status in the community. If you go to church, you check a box that says that you're a good person. I think these are all

good intentions seeking people. just, unfortunately it's, they're just being kept in the full truth. ⁓

Todd Turner (08:11)
Well, so church

isn't a wonderful litmus test, even though when I hear somebody that's plugged into their church, they get a bonus point because it does mean they get, they can't, they can get the value of the fellowship and they're not a lone wolf in the world being a Christian because the Bible does not tell us to do that. Now I am going to speak out of both sides of my mouth. At least I'm acknowledging that.

Jess (08:31)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (08:36)
I also believe that church can be very hurtful for those who are going through or on the other side of a divorce. And I'm, that's why I have to raise my hand here is I really didn't never really plugged back into a church. Cause I got so damaged by them that I didn't want to lean in. And so I also say it's not a fair litmus test with asking about church. Cause

Jess (08:44)
great.

Yeah.

Mmm.

It's a conversation.

Todd Turner (09:02)
Yeah, not everybody leaves in.

Jess (09:02)
So if you were to say, a woman would understand that, like, oh, yeah. And I think just the language someone uses, like, everything you described, you had church hurt, you probably were part of a church, I know a little bit of your story, so you actually were integral in building that church, well, then that solves it, right? Someone's not going to start a church and not be really, probably not really know that. So I do think it does come out in conversation. I think we agree that church isn't the ultimate and only checkbox. That's just part of it.

Todd Turner (09:18)
Right.

Jess (09:28)
This sounds a little intense, I've learned or one of my advices when we're talking about questions to ask, like how do you dig deep a little quicker and reveal these things on date number one, two or three instead of 20 or you're in a relationship attached to someone. I just always say, I wouldn't use a language like when did you get born again or when were you saved? Because I think those can be loaded words and sometimes there can be some miss some translation issues. But I just say, did you always know the Lord or like was there a time when you

really had an awakening or I just asked their story but specifically their story with God like and I share a little bit about mine so it makes them you know I was like a rebellious crazy person thank God you know blah blah blah so I feel like so it doesn't seem like you're grilling them you're just like sincerely interested which is a good sign I think when you're getting to know someone so I think I think that's really the question to ask because it's hard you could tell by the way someone talks you could tell if they're BSing or not.

You know?

Todd Turner (10:25)
No, you're 100 % right.

I would say, I'm gonna add a layer to what you just said. I wrote down, ask their testimony. The problem is, testimony, I do, I actually have been criticized multiple times on dates because people like, I feel like I'm on an interview and I'm like, what you are? mean, that's, we're not going out just to have ribeye tonight. Like.

Jess (10:34)
Yes.

Todd Turner (10:50)
It's we're trying to find out if we're a match. So yeah, I don't sit there with a pen and paper and grill people, but sometimes they feel that way. But yeah, I would probably ask somebody to test like, tell me a little bit about your testimony. Like I want to hear it. Yeah, and it's I want them to tell their story if they're not willing to tell a story, if they don't have a transformation in their life, then they're not going to live a transformed life.

Jess (10:52)
Yeah!

Exactly. Yep. And one other question I think is good to ask because some people don't go to church. So if you're in that scenario, people like church her or they're jaded. mean, whatever it happens. I always, my whole thing is like, really what's important is like the time you spend with God. Like if it's, if you are a Christian, real Christian, that's your number one purpose and goal for living. So I always say like, like work is so crazy. Like, right. Like how do you say if the guy commuted?

I work from home so I could do, have my Bible and prayer time every single morning. Easier said, it's easy for me. So I could just be like, well, when do you find time to like read the word or like, what's your like rhythm? Like what's your like time with the Lord? Right? Cause that, that'll, that'll.

Todd Turner (11:53)
Revealing.

It's super revealing. And I sort of ask that question too of like, tell me the podcast you're listening to, how do you, you know, what are you reading right now in the Bible or whatever? And if they're like, they're not, you're like, okay, well, that says something because how can you not spend time in the word? Like you, it's gotta be in your rhythm. I'm not saying every morning you gotta wake up at six o'clock.

Jess (12:02)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah,

we don't want to come across as holy roller. Like people have seasons, right? People have like, I'm plateaued and I'm like, up and stale in my faith. And it's, mean, that's everyone's experience usually. So it's not that we're like, ⁓ he didn't like, doesn't, he's only five times a week that he's reading the Bible. But like, what we're really, what you're trying to reveal is the hunger and quality of intimacy that someone has with God. It's just, all we're trying to figure out is

Todd Turner (12:19)
Right.

Jess (12:44)
Is this, does this person prioritize God above anything? Above their job, above working out, above their fun things, above their kids, right? That's what being a Christian is. It's sacrificial and it's hard. So you have to walk with the Lord to stay a Christian.

Todd Turner (12:48)
That's right.

100 % and

then all right, so we're going to parlay that into the next one. And that is if you're going, what is your view of the Bible? Meaning if you're saying, if you don't spend time in God's word, well, that's an assumption that you and I are making that a mature believer would be spending time in the word. But then that begs the question, what do you think about God's word? Meaning what's your view on, is it infallible? Does that matter what they think?

Jess (13:05)
what's going on. ⁓

Yeah, I really like this question. Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm a literalist. I believe it's word for word. don't think you could cherry pick, but I believe that you should understand cultural context. So Paul says, you know, slaves over your masters. We have to understand when it was written and what would happen if all the slaves were built. So I really feel like I think that that question is good because everyone should have an opinion. If they're like, whoa.

God wrote the Bible and it was inspired. But I think I'm willing to tolerate someone who's like, well, there was lapses in time. Did God make heaven and earth in seven days or was a day representative? Did that word have different meanings? So it could have spanned a thousand years. That's why I have dinosaurs. Like I'm totally okay with that. But I really think you should have a, you should think it out, right? It's the one thing we have, the whole representation of our faith system. We should probably know what you think, right? And if you do, that's just like,

They're just basic. Not to the sounds here. saw this.

Todd Turner (14:17)
I love the way you word

that I will echo everything you said. would not, I would not not date somebody because we disagree on, know, is it a literal six days or not? I'm not going to die on that hill, but I am going to die on the hill that if you think a lot of the Bible was written to people 2000 years ago and it's not applicable to us today, that ⁓ is a line I can't.

Jess (14:24)
You're done.

Todd Turner (14:42)
live with because if you don't believe the Bible is if God did not reach out from space and time and come in here and speak to us if his word is not relevant and you can start cherry picking well then we'll never be able to have any debate because you're just going to say well I believe this and I'll say I believe this and if we don't we're not coming from the same place that we're going to attempt

Jess (15:04)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (15:06)
to get our theology from God's word, well then we don't have a lot in common.

Jess (15:11)
Yeah, and that's scary because say you're committed to that person or say you get married and there's those discrepancies. Well, the Bible is usually what you come down to when you're going through hard things. Like, so if you're like, we don't know, this is hard. what does the word say? If you are fully committed to the truth of that word, then how is it going to guide you? Right. And I'll go on further. What drives me nuts even more than that is people that add to or say the Bible is a evolving piece of work.

Todd Turner (15:29)
That's right.

Right.

Jess (15:39)
church is, I believe it's the Congregational Church, that that's part of, that's their, they put that out on a press release. ⁓ So, I'm so, I can't, sorry, can go on Blur, there. So, yes, I agree. It's like the importance of the Bibles. It sounds so simple, like, I'm your Christian, but. Yeah.

Todd Turner (15:54)
It sounds simple. It's really complex because if you can say,

I mean, and I'm not trying to get super political in this, but I'm to give a real world example. Either God condones or vilifies whatever word I'm looking for homosexuality or he doesn't like God's not up there. If God, if your view of God.

Jess (16:11)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (16:16)
Is that he gave people thousands of years ago a rule, but he didn't give it to you or add that was a bunch of dumb people who were uneducated back then. We know better now. Well, that's putting your brain above God's brain. I'm like, you and I are going to have nothing in common because I hold God's view and his laws so high that he knows more than I do. And if you believe we know more than that literature, well, then you're the

Jess (16:32)
Yeah.

And then where

does it end though? You could apply that to anything. So women, I would have a hard time trusting a Christian man that believed that way because it's like, well, then your truth is relative. And so does that transcend to marriage and how you behave in a marriage context? what you look at, you know, if you're not held to a standard that you believe is infallible, then I don't want to like follow you, you know, that's scary.

Todd Turner (16:45)
Where does it end?

That's right.

You're

100 % right. And it is, you're right. It's a slippery slope because if you start picking and choosing what you think is right, well then where does that slippery slope end? my, I don't want to get too much into this weed. We're going to stop this rabbit trail here in a second. But if you believe that everything is relative, then why would you even waste time calling yourself a Christian?

Jess (17:12)
Yeah.

Exactly. It's a mystery. Well, it's still good. No, think it's the cultural Christianity thing, right? Because it's like, ⁓ good God, people stories. Like, it's Good American, the flag, and we love God. I think it just checks the box for people.

Todd Turner (17:36)
because what it either is true or it's not.

We're

well, okay. I'm going to jump in my notes because I think it fits right here. And it's one of my flags is if someone and I'm not going to talk about right or left yet. We will. But if somebody can't separate American culturalism, nationalism from Christianity, giant red flag, because if you think if you think that churches need a flag,

Jess (18:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

same.

Todd Turner (18:16)
on their stage and then we're going to talk about politics all the time. That isn't for me because you are picking the parts of the Bible you want and it works. That knife cut both ways because I know people who would swear on a stack of Bibles that if you love the Lord, you will never vote Democrat. And I know people who would say if there's no way you love the Lord and you would vote Republican.

Jess (18:20)
No.

Yeah.

Wait.

I

would say. ⁓

Todd Turner (18:43)
And they both swear

they're right. And it's like, I'm studying.

Jess (18:45)
It's what.

There's just too much hyper-focus

on it, right? And I think it got melded in. It's like there's politics and religion and there's always a way to have grace and be loving. And it's so out of control in the last 10 years. It's so sad because I love talking about politics, but you can't do it. You can't do it.

Todd Turner (19:01)
You

can't. And so if somebody can't tell the difference between their nationalism and their love for America and their Christianity, then it scares the crud out of me because I, the Lord's kingdom work and reaching out to those who are lost is, it's irrelevant to their voting. And all we got to do is look at Jesus. Like how would Jesus vote? He wouldn't.

Jess (19:15)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Turner (19:29)
He had the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the zealots. had everybody coming with their different angle of what they thought he was supposed to do. If you love Israel, then you would want to get rid of the Romans or you would want, know, and he's like, no, I'm here to seek the lost. And that's what we're supposed to if we're supposed to be Christ like we're supposed to be seeking the lost. What does that do?

Jess (19:47)
Right. But I think maybe Jesus would

vote. I don't think God promotes apathy. I do, I believe in like civil involvement and responsibility, but I think no matter which way Jesus would vote, he would know why. He would explain it with grace and it wouldn't affect his view of people who agree with him or don't agree with him. So I don't even know if he wouldn't vote. I just feel like it just wouldn't, he would just vote and move on.

Todd Turner (20:08)
That no, I, agree. I, I great point. I don't need somebody who says, well, I'm just staying out of the argument. Okay. That scares me too. I don't believe in that. I believe we are supposed to vote, but I would say, I can see why people would vote whichever way they vote. And it's just defended, but to people to say, if you don't believe the way I do, that's my view of Jesus. Therefore, if you don't believe it, then you don't really understand Jesus. That scares.

Jess (20:15)
No, cannot. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (20:35)
Yeah, totally. Okay, okay. So let's parlay that into my next note, and that is denominations. We talked a little bit about Christianity, but in your mind, if somebody says I'm Church of Christ, or I'm Southern Baptist, or I'm whatever, does denomination raise flags for you?

Jess (20:55)
a little biased. maybe depending on the denomination, I'm not going to circle, I'm not going to skirt your question, but some of them really represent, like Baptist, for example, there's a wide spectrum. There's the first Baptist fundamental Baptist. think there's like four different kinds and one of them, I don't want to like slaughter their titles. So whatever, one of them, they require women to wear skirts.

Todd Turner (21:16)
I will. I will if you don't.

Jess (21:21)
at all times. I think I saw Bonnie once. So, you know, that would be a turnoff, but I would always have a conversation even even if it's a Catholic person. I think I'm trying to try anything. If there's any denomination. Yes. Probably the congregate United Church of Christ, Congregationalists only because and I don't want to get into any kind of doctrinal debate or anything, but they're very progressive and very liberal, open and affirming all that.

as a like integral part of what they're ⁓ representing nowadays. So I would still have a conversation. I don't think it'd be like, ⁓ you you're not going to answer a question and get to know someone, but it would definitely be like an ick.

Todd Turner (22:03)
Yeah. I, you know, without getting to the detail, denomination

does matter to me, but I also, once again, I don't want people listening to think we are talking about deciding whether somebody is on your level of what you not, not that once higher or lower, it's just that.

Jess (22:08)
Boom.

Right.

Yeah, Catholics might

look at us and be like, hard luck, hard luck. So, yeah.

Todd Turner (22:23)
Right. Fair. All that's fair. But you're trying to find a match. And I

would say I dated ⁓ and married a Church of Christ, not United Church of Christ. That's way more progressive. This is more conservative. No music. ⁓ Lose your salvation, that kind of thing. And it was hard to fit in because I like, I don't believe in these things. And so it was hard to

Jess (22:40)
Yes.

you

Todd Turner (22:50)
We had to church hop a lot because it was really tough because she came from five generations of Church of Christ. And I'm like, this is nonsense. And why don't you have music in here and show me the verse and I'm not raising my kids in this. And it was problematic.

Jess (23:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, when

you have to raise kids with someone, this becomes a higher level conversation. For me, it's a little that's a little more ancillary because nowadays churches have worship nights. They have conferences like you could even have like a hybrid situation. We take turns every other like that's what my my mom and her husband do. He's he's actually Catholic, a born again Catholic, and she likes the charismatic. She wants to dance around with her banners, so it's like you know that doesn't. They totally disagree. Actually, our church is like.

Todd Turner (23:08)
Yep.

Jess (23:32)
like the loudest rock, and he's just like, why is it pitch black? Why are there lasers? Like, yeah, can't handle it. So it's a good example of they take turns and they'll go, he'll come to like her worship nights. So I think that when you're not trying to raise kids together and find someone to get married and have kids with, there's a lot of divorce people are like, I think they're 30s or late 20s. mean, people get divorced at all ages. That I is a higher priority conversation.

Todd Turner (23:55)
Yeah, yeah, you're 100%. You're 100 % right. You got to be in lockstep when you're raising kids. You might have a little bit more freedom when you're empty nest. We can swap a little bit. And that's my thing too, is I had an uncle who in his, he's passed away, but I would bet you that guy had never missed church. I bet I can count on my two hands. Any times he ever missed church, he would leave.

Jess (24:15)
⁓

Todd Turner (24:19)
know, hunting or whatever, just like, got to be back Sunday, I got to be back Sunday. And I'm like, I can count on how many times I've went to church this last year. I don't hold, I don't hold that as God's up in the heaven, looking at us and tallying how many times we went or we didn't go. Yes, don't forsake the meeting of the brethren, but that's a vague verse. God knows there's wars. There's, there's, ⁓

Jess (24:19)
Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (24:43)
But what do we just have with COVID, like international health crisis, like the plagues, like God's not gonna tell us, you've gotta be there or I'm gonna be upset. Yeah.

Jess (24:46)
Yeah.

They got a double duty for two years, guys.

Yeah, my thought on that has evolved through the years. used to be more like, can't believe they skipped church. I can't believe I'm like so in the opposite end now. It's like, well, church could be like me praying with my girlfriends. That's a gathering of us. I'm not even sure if I even think mega churches or big churches are biblical at this point. I'm doing my whole like, wait a minute, because I've gone through some tough just church experiences as sadly lot of people have. So that's different.

Todd Turner (25:18)
I totally

agree and you and I will talk about that offline, but I I do believe in the sacraments of living in communion and baptism and that's what I sort of miss when I don't go into the public public ones, but I believe that the the the iron sharpening iron and that accountability can be had that fellowship a hundred different ways without me sitting in your row and listen to that 45 minute sermon. I don't really need that. I know that's another conversation. Okay.

Jess (25:27)
Yeah. Yes.

Yes, Yep.

Todd Turner (25:46)
Let's, I'm gonna now just look down at my notes. Here's one that is the one we probably should have started with. And that is the gospel. Like hearing somebody's testimony, but when somebody says they're a Christian, what's their definition of the gospel? Because let's just say somebody does go to church. They say they love the Lord and they do love the Lord. But when you ask them, what does it mean? Like save from what?

Like it's part of their testimony is hearing what is your definition of the gospel?

Jess (26:15)
Like, what's the good news?

Like you were literally, was like, what's the good news?

Todd Turner (26:19)
What's the yeah, what's so good about it? What's the bad part? So what's the good part? Like I ask people that all the time. It's like if you believe the gospel, well, the gospel is good news. Well, it has to be good because something was bad. What's the bad? Tell me the bad in your life that became good because of God saving grace and if they don't understand, I'm jumping in my nose. If they don't understand grace, then you don't understand the gospel. And so if I don't hear the word grace,

Jess (26:31)
No.

The need to do things. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Todd Turner (26:47)
coming out

of your mouth and perminating in your actions, grace towards others, then you don't understand this grace if you're not giving this grace out.

Jess (26:56)
So true. that, I mean, one of the points we're talking about, how do you lead them out if we're like trying to help people? Like, how do you figure out if someone's a Christian or loves the Lord? And I feel like it's your, I always tell, think a lot of girlfriends are like, watch his actions, not his words. And you can apply this in the faith world. So it's like, or what's the Matthew verse? You shall be known by their fruit. ⁓ And that just means whatever comes out of you. it's, yeah, you're unforgiving or you're not.

Todd Turner (27:12)
And you can type in this page for

Jess (27:23)
merciful towards others or you're like saying something about guy on the street, it's like it will your heart will reveal itself through your mouth. So I feel like that's a good point. And it explains it all. you don't if you are if you don't see yourself as fallen in a need of a savior, then you're in your self sufficient prideful way, right? Like why even then why do you

go to wedding do anything, right? If it's just like a way of life and ⁓ like a moral system and that's what Christianity is to you, which I think is really common. But yeah, you have to, I think that's huge is like finding someone who honestly like who needs Jesus daily. Like I don't like these people that are like, I said the prayer when I was 24. It's like, I am always like, I need them like all the time, like two o'clock after lunch. But I'm like ready to swear this guy's going too slow on the road. And I think that's such a good

Todd Turner (28:03)
Check.

Jess (28:13)
quality because I think I've talked about before my favorite characteristic of someone is humility because that solves so much. If you see yourself or who you are and constantly in awe of what God has done for you and how God has loved through your continual filth, you'll be loving and gracious to others because you see yourself through that lens. You see others through that lens, which is the lens that God sees them in.

Todd Turner (28:36)
You're

you are when I'm going to we're going to touch this part of the elephant a thousand different ways. If you don't understand that nothing you did cause you to be a good Christian like Christian Christianity. That's my pet peeve when I hear somebody say, you know, I'm a good Christian. I'm like, well, then you don't know what a Christian is. There's no such thing as a good Christian. Zero. It's a it is a oxymoron term.

Jess (28:56)
I love that because yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (29:04)
There's

nothing that makes you a Christian by your behavior. So you do good behavior because you've been given a free gift, not in order to get it. And so if you don't see yourself as wholly depraved, that God graciously gave you salvation and a relationship with Him through no means of your own, then once you are humbled by that, to your point,

Jess (29:26)
Hmm.

Todd Turner (29:31)
Well, then now you're like, well, then why am I carrying a sign that says God hates fags? What do you think? Like what? God loves them, died for them, and wants you to love on them too. So why would you be sitting here preaching something different? So when you feel hate, when you feel condescending to waiters, all those things you're talking about, it screams they don't understand what

Jess (29:36)
Whooooa!

I know, I know.

Todd Turner (29:59)
they've been given.

Jess (29:59)
they received,

which means did they really receive it? Yeah, one of my things is when I first got saved, or I, it was actually too overwhelming. I used to just cry. I was just crying all the time because I had love. was a, I think I was a cold, I was like a mean girl before getting saved. So for me, it was like too much. It was like, my gosh, I have all this empathy and I'm seeing everyone around me through God's eyes. It was, it was wild. It was like for a year. So it's like that's

Todd Turner (30:02)
Which means did they receive it? That's exactly right.

Jess (30:28)
close to my heart that's like, that's true. He made me who was mean and selfish not be able to stop crying for everybody. yeah, you want someone who aligns with that.

Todd Turner (30:38)
You've got to somebody who can, well, this is why the testimony is so important. If in that testimony, it wasn't, well, I was born and raised in church, which a lot of people's answer, well, I'm a Christian because I grew up in church and I go to church every once in a while and I love Jesus. Okay, where's the testimony that talks about grace? The word grace and grace littering.

Jess (30:47)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (31:01)
all or as many areas of your life that it can, we all fail. Don't get me wrong, I fail billions of times a day. ⁓ If you don't hear that, it should be a giant red flag that they don't get it.

Jess (31:04)
Hmm.

Okay, but I do think there's a grace abundant thing that goes on with like, ⁓ that's great. So I think you get, I'm a little like, we should always be trying our best, trying to be more like Jesus, trying to get excellent. You know, I don't want to be struggling with the same sin in 10 years. I'm struggling with now. I know that's not what you're saying, but I always have this little like a little perk that goes up and it's like, okay, yes, grace. Yes. We don't want to be like,

I can sin and do what I want for the rest of my life because of God's grace. Then you don't know what it is. Then it's infinity. Right, that's the thing.

Todd Turner (31:44)
Right. That is just called God being

indifferent and that he doesn't care. Well, okay. Now without getting into too much theology talk, it is pertinent here because I'm going to go ahead and jump in my notes because what you just said and that is the Bible. I'm gonna get on a soapbox for a second. The Bible is this amazing tension between truth and grace.

Jess (31:49)
Yeah. ⁓

Hmm.

Todd Turner (32:10)
Both are equal. Jesus was the perfect balance of truth and grace. What we see in our personal life, our society, our denominations, and our politics is when we lean too far to one or the other. So when you're truth, you hold up signs that says God hates, fill in the blank. That's the truth side speaking.

Jess (32:13)
you

Yes

⁓

Hmm, that's a nice one.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (32:34)
The

grace side is like, know, God loves everybody, you know, let them do it, let us invite them into our church. Well, hold on, that's leading too far one way. Republicans lean truth, Democrats lean grace. United Church of Christ leads truth, regular Church of Christ leans grace, the other leads truth. Everything is this balance because we get it wrong. Jesus is the only one who got it 100 % right. So we're called to be and we have to respect the true side.

Jess (32:40)
Hmm. sure. Yep.

Yeah.

Hmm. ⁓

Todd Turner (33:01)
Because truth matters. You can't say that it doesn't, but it doesn't trump grace. But true grace can't trump truth either, or you're in a world of hurt. So a mature Christian is constantly trying to keep them both equal. And that's hard.

Jess (33:17)
Yeah, that's so true. That's why I

love the Bible story where Jesus, the woman, was going to get stoned by all the religious men and he said, cast a first start. But I always point, I used to do Bible studies with like young girls who were like in the juvenile justice system. And I, and they talk a lot about like, well, God loves me. Why can't I keep smoking pot or God loves me. And I'm like, God loves you. And because he loves you, he doesn't want to keep smoking pot. So I love the Bible verse. I always used to say he didn't. Yes. He said,

get out of here and he protected and stood up for the lady, but he said, sit no more. So he had grief, but sent truth. So that's, love that story because it perfectly like epitomizes what you just

Todd Turner (33:46)
to no more truth.

It's it's it's yeah. So to wrap up that that thought is the test your testimony should be a life testimony and also should have a story of understanding grace. I would say if you smell that there it's cheap grace. It just means I you know, we you know, we know we know more now that's so cruel that God would kill somebody for an affair. It's like well, no, but it's truth.

Jess (34:18)
and

Todd Turner (34:20)
You had an affair like you could be put to death for it. Yeah, but the New Testament's also the grace part. And by the way, that story's tough because even the story of the women, the guys trying to stone the woman still had it wrong. They weren't even following real Old Testament law anyway. And how come the man wasn't out there to be stoned either, which is another problem.

Jess (34:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right.

I know, I've heard that.

I heard it was a man. I've heard maybe it was one of the... There, let's eat it. Whatever. So yeah.

Todd Turner (34:45)
Well, right. So the point

is that one wasn't even gotten. Jesus didn't ignore truth. He was sort of pointing out that ⁓ you guys aren't even following the law. So why don't we let her go? How about that? Yeah. So, okay. All right. I talked a little bit about the do good and do bad. I do. Let's talk about that a little bit. Back to the fruit. So.

What are some of the fruits you should see? Well, we talked a little bit about church attendance or at least valuing that, but I'm going to talk another fruit level and that's giving. I don't know how you ask somebody what they give, but if you're not giving to your church and or giving to a parachurch ministry, if you're not, if you don't see giving in their life, isn't that a problem?

Jess (35:18)
Yeah.

Yep.

And so yes, it is. I think so people, if anyone's listening or watching and isn't a Christian or a person of faith, there's a New Testament verse, we believe in tithing and it's giving 10 % of your gross income, not your net. And I don't want to get into the logistics of, does it have to be your church? I personally believe you could do a ministry or like a faith-based organization that feeds starving children. So I don't want to get into that because I know there's different, but yes, I think giving it's the whole.

verse of like wherever your treasure is, their heart is also, I think that was Jesus. And I, so here's the problem. Like I was going when, when I was thinking about our talk, I'm like, well, why shouldn't you be unequal? You know, if you don't have to raise kids together, you can respect each other. I can't do get married as long as he's a good person. And the problems that will come when I was thinking about them, one major one is money is use of your money. Because if you're a Christian, you're going to give ⁓ or, and if someone comes to you and needs money, you're probably going to give it to them.

and you're probably not going to be very materialistic. It's just not the lens that you're going to live life. that could be, we've both been married. Most people watching or listening have been married. How many of us hadn't had fights about money and how to use our money? So throw two different views on what money even is. Everything comes from God. It's not a natural way to think. It's a supernatural way to think. You have to understand everything comes from God. And that's the tricky one, because this is like, put your money where your mouth is.

Todd Turner (36:52)
It's you're 100 % right that if you don't have the lens of whose money it is and what the priority is, it's not to collect as much as we can so we can retire early and live the life we want. Not that that's not a layer of it. We're supposed to be responsible. We don't want to be burdens to our kid or society. But the lens, I'm going to get into the weeds a little bit of theology just because.

Jess (37:07)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know about that. Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (37:16)
This is what this podcast is all about. We're going to touch all the parts. ⁓ A wise man once told me, because I'm in the fundraising business. That's literally what I do is I help Christian churches, nonprofits raise money to help fund their ministry. So I have thought long and hard about this topic. And so I went to my a couple of pastors and asked this question. Sorry, this feels like a rabbit trail, but I think it really fits here. And that is.

Jess (37:32)
and

Hmm.

you

Todd Turner (37:44)
What is our role when it comes to giving? Because I think a lot of pastors think incorrectly that our goal is to give 10 % to our church and then anything above and beyond sacrificial somewhere else. But you go your money to your church first and then hit your 10 % and move over, which is biblically incorrect. And a lot of pastors would, yeah, they would.

Jess (38:07)
Most people think that.

Todd Turner (38:10)
flip their lid if you preach something different. I believe the truth is there is clear biblical evidence that we are supposed to give to our local church. That is a fact. If you are ministered to, if you're part of a local body, you need to give to that body. That's a fact. There is no rule of 10%. Tithing is an Old Testament thing. New Testament is a cheerful giver. And in the New Testament, we see people who literally

Jess (38:12)
So what do you believe or what's the truth then?

Yeah.

Todd Turner (38:37)
were giving to the apostles laying at their feet, meaning there wasn't a 10 % tithe. was people were selling whole pieces of land and giving it. It was community-based giving to help those in need in your church. The apostle Paul, in traveling on his missionary journeys, there was a famine going on in Jerusalem. And as he was going around to Philippi and ⁓ Corinth and all places, he was collecting money to give back to the people in need.

Jess (38:40)
Thank

Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Turner (39:03)
He was literally parachurch ministering and collecting money that was not for a local church, it was for people. So we have New Testament giving that's above and beyond, but it's not a 10%. He didn't say give your church first, but we are to give to our church and we are to give to people in need, period, end of story. There's no 10 % rule and there's no priority of which one is more important than the other one, but you cannot.

Jess (39:03)
Mmm. Yeah.

Todd Turner (39:30)
give your money to a 501c3 if you're not giving to your local church. It's not max out at 10 and then anything above. And so yeah, it's not controversial. My argument is if you disagree, prove it. Find me the scripture. There's no scripture in the New Testament that tells you to tie it to your church 10%. Zero doesn't exist. That was an Old Testament to the Israelites. there's tithing's not even a New Testament word.

Jess (39:33)
Mmm, I agree.

you

Well, your caveat is...

Okay, so you don't... You think the percentage... There's no percentage in your mind. It should just be... You should be giving to what God calls you to and do it cheerfully and do at least something to your local church. If you will. Yeah.

Todd Turner (40:10)
100 % and when people

say what about 10 % and I'm I would be that big great place to start What if it's 20? Hey if If you say 10 then that means if you give 11 or you is that wrong? Did God? Oh, he told you 10 like it's just a great place to start like be a cheerful giver give a Christian gifts

Jess (40:16)
Nothing at all!

Yeah, no, think that's a bare

minimum. I just always thought you had to tie it 10%. Most people I know believe that, so.

Todd Turner (40:34)
Well, I know

and that's what most pastors assume, which is why I have a whole course for churches because I'm like, what frustrates me is I have pastors who statistically only like 20 to 30 % of people give in a church anyway. So if you're sitting here saying, oh, well, which people gave it's like, oh, well, first of all, you're not giving them anything to give to that's your that's your fault. And then and then the people in your pews are giving out hundreds of millions of dollars a year to nonprofits.

Jess (40:40)
Okay.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Todd Turner (41:03)
They'd give to

you if you gave them something to jump to.

Jess (41:06)
Totally agree. That's why I think I would never go to a church that didn't support missions and like local missionaries who come and report in and all of that. think that's nuts. mean, we'll never, I don't even know if contemporary Christian church, the way it's set up structurally is biblical because if you look at New Testament church, there was no buildings, church is believers, so there's no church building.

Todd Turner (41:13)
Thank you.

Jess (41:29)
The point of church there was to take care of the widows and orphans. gave everything pitched in. I mean, it sounds like socialism and I know a lot of people, oh, do you want to be a communist or a socialist? No, that's not what I'm saying, but I am saying that. I don't know if you plopped a mega church in there in the New Testament that would fit in with any of the criteria that Jesus was saying we should. So I don't know.

Todd Turner (41:46)
Well, I'm going

to add one more thing to what you just said, because you have me at hello on that. already, I already drank the Kool-Aid you're drinking. Here's my argument. If America's tomorrow put for sale signs on every one of our churches, the billions and billions and billions of dollars that we would make, we could solve hunger crisis and everything else. But we're spending our money playing church.

Jess (42:09)
every single hunger crisis. I know.

Todd Turner (42:14)
when they're suffering people and it makes no sense.

Jess (42:14)
I know. I know it.

I know I feel the same way for the amount of foster care children and orphans and I just not that's different. That's not money that's opening your doors. But I do think the percentage should be higher for the amount of Christians we have like living. That's my that's my like heart thing. Yeah, and I don't know if it's biblical to have one guy and everybody has like usually church board of directors, elders, everybody has these

Todd Turner (42:33)
I couldn't read more.

Jess (42:41)
However, I don't know, I can't find it in the Bible. It's like one dude gets up at a podium and like shares what God told him and then we all go home. Like that doesn't really, but listen, we're in a deprived, horrible, that's why Westernized culture, that's why I don't think we see miracles.

Todd Turner (42:54)
Yeah. All right. So we're going to use that to parlay into the next one. And that is good. We could go all day on this. It goes back to who you listen to and who you follow. So we were talking about denominations and I used to work just so everybody know I used to work for Chuck Swindoll and Chuck is one of the very for him and John McArthur. I think the two original pastors who recorded their sermons and put it on the radio. They're going to started

Jess (43:05)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (43:22)
the whole genre of all of us listening to other pastors. They started it. And so I know this industry really well. I understand the math behind radio stations and websites. So I know I have a secret behind the curtain view on all this. But so what you're saying, I also believe that the Bible talks about the gifts of preaching and teaching. It's a spiritual gift.

Jess (43:22)
That's so cool. Wow. Wow.

Mmm.

Wait.

Todd Turner (43:50)
nowhere in

the Bible did they ever say those people are good CEOs. They're good business leaders. They're good, whatever. So what you have is you have people who are good at something rising to the top and sort of lording over that. he's the pastor. He's the boss. It's like, ⁓ that guy may be the worst financial guy you've ever met in your life. And he's over here. That's not as good.

Jess (43:59)
Yes.

Exactly. Yep.

And no, not him. That's not his gift. Usually great people are terrible

at this.

Todd Turner (44:18)
And if he doesn't have the right people around him, which very few of those people do because they like their type A personalities. And so they lead their flocks horribly. And because they're good orators, they're good teachers. We give them all this grace and it creates these mega churches. They're like, I follow that guy. That's the dumbest thing of all time.

Jess (44:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

I know that's why I love Francis Chan. I love Francis Chan because he won't go on social media. He's like, I don't have followers. I am a follower. Like honestly, I think if I think of everybody, any like Christian leader, I think he's doing it right more than anyone that I know of. I follow a lot. We all do it. I a lot of his news, but it's like, yep, this guy has it right in my opinion.

Todd Turner (45:03)
I know I like I like him. I hear you and so my argument is when I hear people who follow certain people. I cringe.

Jess (45:11)
You don't

have your favorite. If you miss church, you will watch the sermon online from your favorite.

Todd Turner (45:19)
I do. I do. But when I hear somebody say, ⁓ I listen to Joel Olsteen based on everything we just said, I'm like, we have a problem because I don't respect his theology. don't respect. He's one of these people who's grown in popularity. And I'm like, but

Jess (45:34)
Yeah, we can't

talk about Joel. But like, ⁓ so you just mean if you disagree with who they follow, not that they follow someone, because I think we all in the

Todd Turner (45:42)
All right, right.

No, no, I'm OK with liking someone's teaching style. I'm OK with consuming. But I'm saying when somebody puts somebody up on a pedestal and that person actually is not really good at what they do and they are a type A person that that's how they got there. That's a red flag for me because I'm like, you're you don't show a lot of discernment by following that person. Therefore, now I think less of you. And I'm not saying.

Jess (45:52)
Yeah.

Yes.

Todd Turner (46:09)
Hey, listen, I can raise my hand here. I may be being a pretentious theological jerk right now. I'll admit it, but I do look down on people who follow certain people and they romanticize them as great. That's a red flag.

Jess (46:21)
Yeah,

yeah. I mean, I don't, I like to get myself in trouble because I work at a Christian publishing imprint. So I work on books published by probably a lot of the people that I vote for probably thinking of the flashier, you know, they have $10,000 suits on. So I'm steeped in this and it's, ⁓ I'm mystified, honestly. I'm always like, okay, it's this back and forth tension of like,

Todd Turner (46:35)
No.

Jess (46:46)
But God uses everybody. They're probably reaching a certain crowd. God can use anybody. did he, didn't he use a mule at some point? ⁓

Todd Turner (46:55)
I aren't we going

but but hold on boy the way this is taking a left turn conversation. But aren't we back to talking about truth and grace again is because what you're saying is well, let's throw that guy some grace and I'm also like but they don't have good teaching and I don't want anybody following somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Jess (47:08)
Yeah, I'm not defending it, but you get like,

Todd Turner (47:17)
And so where's the line between truth and grace? Yeah, God may use them, but I'm not going to send somebody to that person. Or if you're telling me the guy who's this deep, you think he's this deep. Well, now I don't think you and I are going to get along very well.

Jess (47:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well,

so it's desperate times up here in Connecticut. There's not a lot of one again. So I think you're on a little more of a selective thing. Mine's like, OK, well, maybe I can let that slide. It wouldn't be a deal breaker if you love like Stephen from elevation, but you know, I think for for me, it's like, well, I think it might diminish the like respect, you know, like you kind of always want someone.

Todd Turner (47:50)
Okay.

Jess (47:51)
at your level or you can learn something or at least like you're stronger in different areas. I think if someone let's just for Joel, yeah, Astro hosting is a good example. It's like that would actually that would be wouldn't be a deal breaker, but I'd have some long, feisty talks.

Todd Turner (48:07)
Well, once again,

people that you and I who work behind the curtain, I know who writes his devotionals. They're not his, they're somebody else's. There's a machine behind it all, and we know the machine, so we creep out when we see things because we're like, that's a ghost writer who wrote that book. He's preaching that sermon to set up his next book. We know there's a machine behind it, so I just don't value things.

Jess (48:15)
Nah.

Yeah.

Even if there

wasn't, though, it's the theology. he I don't know. I think some may want to pray for his soul based on what he is recent, just on what he professes. So.

Todd Turner (48:32)
That's right.

I totally agree. it's anything called your best life now. And you're living in a world where God's like, I'm not giving you your best life now. If you're aiming for that, you missed the point.

Jess (48:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, and think his wife is like, you're one big beautiful you or something. A lot of eyes and a lot of youth. Yeah.

Todd Turner (48:55)
Yeah, anyway. We'll stop dogpalling Joel, but he deserves it. Okay. ⁓

Let's go back to the dating app. I forgot to say this earlier, but I think it's super important. When you're on a dating app and somebody writes the word spiritual or spiritual and Christian, I actually have on one of my apps in my bio, it says swipe left if you use the word spiritual, because I don't know if that means

Jess (49:11)
Yep, run.

⁓ Yes

Todd Turner (49:21)
You like worship music, you do Norwegian fertility chants, or you do yoga naked. I don't know what that means. What does spiritual even mean?

Jess (49:30)
So you love like the longer you're on the apps, the more like ornery and cranky again. Like, you know, if God is in the butterfly, don't like I just. Yeah, the spiritual thing is tricky. So I have to tell my ultimate horror story on this. And it's like, I'll take 60 seconds. So I met someone I was in a really long relationship with at my sister's Bible study that was put on like a life from a church that we were both mutually going to. He was a complete stranger.

a very Bible based fundamental church, like a great church. He had gone to for years. I find out four months into it, he tells me like, he's gonna tell me as like a veneer or a leaser or something, I have something to tell you. Gosh, what is this? I don't believe in hell. I believe people are reincarnated at least twice before they go to heaven. Jesus may or may not be the son of God, doesn't matter. I love Jesus. And he talks to angels just as much as he does God. After four months.

And so I bring this up not for a pity party. Yeah, we already saying I love you and I stayed with him. So I mean, they got in and married, but like my whole if I want to like talk to people listening that are maybe like, oh, back and forth or I'm sensing this, this person is definitely not a real Christian, but it's Better to let it go now. And if I, if I'm honest with myself, I saw some signs that you turn a blind eye to. And I people do that early on in dating. So you finally found someone nice. At he goes to church. I mean,

Is God going to be that cruel that he's going to drop some dude in my sister's Bible study and that it's not going to work? So it's like, yeah, but I ignored things. He talked about his crystals everywhere. I don't care about crystals that much, but he like, yeah, he had some books on his bookshelf that were new agey. He was so hyper spiritual. So I only bring that up because I think that's a big thing right now. I think you can, I think it's tricky. People can appear to be Christians and they're just spiritual. So I agree with you. That word has become a dirty word to me.

Todd Turner (51:16)
It I agree

and that's my whole argument. I don't want to fall in love with you to find out your wacko. I want to know where your wacko right up front and and the spirit here. Here's my problem with the spiritual stuff is well, if this person was in this room right now talking to us and you'll I think you're reincarnated twice before you go to heaven based on what tell me where you got that if you pull that out of your rear.

Jess (51:25)
Yeah.

Alright.

I know.

Todd Turner (51:42)
And

I think if any sentence starts with, think I'm going to trumpet with God says, and so what, what I think I got an argument with somebody who I love. She's probably going to listen to this and we're going to, it's going to create another argument because we go round and around with this argument is her argument is, how can God send somebody to hell that never heard.

Jess (51:46)
Yeah.

I know. Yep.

Todd Turner (52:05)
Or you're telling me Jews are good people. They're all you're telling me they're going to hell. don't believe in Jesus. I'm like God I could just point to what God's don't don't grab at me. We're back to it. Do you believe the Bible? Because if you leave the Bible, ought to both be able to go there and point and say here's what God said. So my argument is if if it's in the Bible, then how can you say anything that contradicts it? So if you're making up a rule.

Jess (52:14)
Yeah.

Totally.

Yep.

Todd Turner (52:30)
that

people are reincarnated. If you're making up a rule that people don't go to hell, then let's just free for all and just we all just believe what we believe. Like that's not who I need to be yoked with.

Jess (52:38)
Thank

I know, and that was the number one, I think my rebuttal after I was so shocked, I was like, well, how do you explain the Bible? And then he's like, well, I think.

Todd Turner (52:50)
Well, you're back to, if it means nothing to you, then I mean nothing to you because I need somebody who believes it. What I like to think is my maturity, back to you're saying you learned some hard lessons. I really love this statement. The Bible is true, but not all truth is in the Bible. I love that phrase because what it's...

Jess (52:57)
Yeah. ⁓

⁓ yes, I heard you say that. No true.

Todd Turner (53:16)
graduated me from was I used to only worry about what was in the Bible and I stood true on it. And now I realize, well, I don't know if crystals are right or wrong. I don't know. Maybe they do have some benefits, but God would have created it. Meaning yoga. I'm not scared of yoga. I believe yoga is actually really great. Now the yoga that points me to anywhere other than Christ, I'm against. But me doing hamstring stretches while I pray, I don't have a problem with that.

Jess (53:20)
totally

and

Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Todd Turner (53:44)
So I'm

learning to learn about human psychology. I'm learning to learn about ⁓ natural homeopathic remedies and things like that. I believe in them because God would have made them. So not everything, not in the Bible is witchcraft. But if it doesn't point you back to Christ, if it doesn't point you back to the Bible, then I now have a problem with it.

Jess (53:54)
Okay.

Is it right? Yeah.

Right. So the Bible has to inform your way of viewing those things. Like we talk about yoga. So again, if you're unequally yoked with someone and you get in a long star relationship, you're just not, it's gonna always, you're always gonna have a divisiveness in your relationship because I feel like you're just not gonna, you don't have the same blueprint for operating life. How many problems in life is this? So you're gonna be yoked to someone who's not necessarily going your same direction. It's hard enough.

Todd Turner (54:36)
Yeah.

Jess (54:36)
I think

the number one thing to anyone listening is if you're like, would I date a non-Christian or just if you're thinking about this, I feel like if you want to, and if you're like, no, I really, I'm to do it right now, or maybe you're just starting out dating, just got a divorce and you're like, should I date someone that just goes to church but doesn't seem like a Christian? I think the best thing to do is have a long talk with yourself and either commit to the idea or not. And then just tell yourself why and remind yourself why.

and studying the Bible, what it means to be unequal, because if you're half and half wishy washy on it, you're just going to date a non-Christian. So you have to, that's what my, because I did this years ago in my younger years and it's like, I just go with emotions and God's going to lead me and like, it's going to work out and it doesn't. You're going to waste your time, your energy, you're going to break hearts. I mean, it's rough. It's better to just wait and do it the right way. And God will honor that, but you have to make up your mind first.

Todd Turner (55:26)
I totally agree and I'm going to give you another, it just sort of goes back to the Catholic, I'm going to pick on the Catholic for a second because I know somebody who has told me.

I don't believe exactly what you believe, but that's okay. I could love you and build a relationship with you. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. that because they hold, they don't hold the Bible as high as I do. So therefore it's easy for them to say that. I'm like, well, that's okay. We disagree. And I'm like, no, no, no. If you believe what I believe, there's no way we can agree because

Jess (55:40)
Hmm.

Right. Right.

So you nailed it.

that. If our family

is going to go to hell, you don't believe there's a hell, it's gonna kill you a more. So it's like, how's that?

Todd Turner (56:03)
Right.

You can't compromise. you know, once again, the Old Testament, can learn from God's character doesn't change. God is who he is. So the Old Testament, we confuse sometimes tithing, but God gave Israelite certain thing. He was making them his people and he threw some big fits about kill everybody that lives here because I don't want you influenced by them.

Jess (56:09)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Todd Turner (56:34)
I want

you to influence them. And the whole reason with the temple was God like, I want you to build those temples so that all the nations see that y'all are different. And then when they came and he realized that no, they tore the temple down. He's like, if y'all aren't going to be an influencer, you're just going to get influence. Well, then I have no use for you. That's when he killed the fig tree, right? On the, ⁓ all of it discourse moment. And so it's the same with us. If like something has to set us apart.

Jess (56:41)
Yes.

love you.

Todd Turner (57:01)
If Christian to you is just a little checkbox, I'm not a Hindu, you know, whatever. If it's not...

bleeding, unintended, into your life and showing itself in all these places, then what are you doing? What are you doing? And why would you couple with anybody who doesn't hold a high view of God and His word? I'm not perfect. I screw up all, it's not perfection. Don't ever look at Todd Turner if you want perfection. But if the other person doesn't have a heart for God and it's not permeating out in their life,

Jess (57:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (57:34)
then why would you yoke with them? Like it's the most foolish thing you can do.

Jess (57:40)
Yeah. And it causes so much pain and dissension. Most of us listening or watching have been married. So an equal yoke just means there's going to if it's it's that wooden harness that holds the oxen together as Paul was talking about. So we did that because if they weren't yoke, there'd be tension and they'd be going in their different direction. So just be selfish about it. If you're like, OK, you have dreams and goals and aspirations that we all should have individually. Then you get married. It's going to hinder.

your dreams and aspirations and goals. If you have someone pulling in the wrong direction, it's going to feel like dead weight. They're going to bring you down. It's not going to be fun. So it's like, take the spirituality out of it. Because I think sometimes that's easier to just be motivated by, honestly. And it's like, no way. It's hard enough. I mean, I'm divorced. Like, hard enough. So throw that in the mix. It's crazy that people even would consider it, who have been divorced, and the heartache and the horror of dividing up your life.

Todd Turner (58:22)
That's right.

Learn enough.

Jess (58:35)
Isn't it crazy that we're talking amongst Christians and not crazy in a judgy way, but isn't it just wild that that's still a consideration? And I'm talking to myself who I did this a couple of years ago, like, okay, because why? Because you're so hard-working, you're so desperate, your faith is tested now because you thought you were gonna be married, now you're not. So you're just like, well, maybe I'll just like deal with the breadcrumbs. Maybe I'll just, you know, and that's God, that's not, there's no God in that narrative, right? But I tell you, people do it, but it's like.

Todd Turner (59:00)
There's no God.

Jess (59:02)
I just want to give people a pep talk. like, speak of authority of someone who understands and has a lot on my face. And it's just, it doesn't even work for you.

Todd Turner (59:07)
Yeah.

I love that. agree. I

appreciate you landing the plane. I'm going to land it another way as well. I'm going to add a layer to what you just said. And that's prayer. We haven't talked about prayer life, but it's one of the day. If you don't see a prayer life, that's a problem. That's another one. But I'm going to double down on what you just said. I don't want to always pray alone.

Jess (59:22)
Thank you.

⁓

Mmm.

Todd Turner (59:32)
If I

have my own life and you have yours and you see God differently than me, then we're never going to be in unison. And I want my partner, my life partner and I to have a vibrant prayer life together. And if we're praying for different things, we'll never be in unison. And I don't want somebody's like, Lord, I want a new car. I want that vacation. I want that whatever, because they have a Joel Olsteen lens on. And I want a life that I want my partner and I to pray about things that

Jess (59:48)
I know I'm glad you're reading this up, because that's what you said.

Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (1:00:00)
We are aiming at our Lord help us find a way to help that missionary or whatever, whatever it is being locked step.

Jess (1:00:05)
Yeah,

miss having a partner that you're like, I want someone to unite with me and do spiritual warfare warfare over something my teenagers going through. And sometimes you really don't want to call your friend and do that. So that is a good let this test. I'm to bring that up because of the couple relationships who are quasi Christians have whatever lukewarm, which isn't even a thing. ⁓ It's like, try praying with them and see how you feel.

Todd Turner (1:00:30)
right?

How it goes and one, do they even want to? Two, can you tell that they've even exercised that muscle? You can tell. And then three, what if you're in lockstep of what you're praying for? Like that bonds you in a way that is so amazing.

Jess (1:00:37)
Yeah.

I

don't recommend praying until you're in a relationship because I think that's such a vulnerable intimate special thing that I would not that's something where it's like it's so special it's so important I wouldn't even like do that until you're in relationship

Todd Turner (1:01:00)
Okay, you just ticked off our next conversation because I wrote this down of when does somebody become a spiritual leader? do you lean in to this relationship of what that would look like? And I agree with you, prayer, I'm going to say a little something and then we're going to end this. Is I used to pray on the first date and I quit.

I totally quit it the practice of praying on the first day. No, I'm like at a meal like praying before the meal and I quit and part of the reason I quit and it's so funny because I've told people this are like, why would you quit? And I'm like, well, I'm telling you why. Because when you pray at beginning of the meal, had too many women say,

Jess (1:01:30)
Like you'd pray at the end of a date? Like what do you mean?

⁓ yeah.

Todd Turner (1:01:49)
You're the first guy who's ever prayed before a meal or it gave me a leg up. And once I realized that it was a leg up now, I felt like I was like, I didn't want to be. I didn't want to use it as a weapon because I realized how it separates you from other people. And then by me praying, I knew I almost bad a thousand that every time I prayed, they said something and I go up. Can't do it.

Jess (1:01:59)
about you, you're just like, yeah, I can see that.

Yeah.

Where'd go? Ella's listening.

Maybe that's like something that the mensch... Maybe that's the way. Maybe you're singing me into you.

Todd Turner (1:02:18)
But no, it's bad.

It's a weapon when you realize that most people don't do it and then the woman's gonna give you a checkpoint for it. And I thought, no, to your point, it's so intimate. It's so bonding that when people pray together that I thought, don't wanna join into that until I know they're my person. And I backed off, cause I agree with what you said.

Jess (1:02:26)
Yeah, you don't have to see it. Yeah, I can see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Yeah, that's funny because I'd always be the one praying over meals. What does that say about the guys that I've always gone out with? It's funny, I don't think there's, I'm always like, I'll do it.

Todd Turner (1:02:52)
You shouldn't wear the Joel Olsteen t-shirts everywhere you go. That'll

help. Okay, this has been good. I think we landed the plane with this. It matters. If somebody says they're a Christian, it's worth the vetting and it's not to be condescending. And I would even say there are going to be people who listen who totally disagreed with us on four or five things. Great. Good. Find your match. Find your match because you're not going to do well if you're Church of Christ and they're Baptist or

Jess (1:02:59)
fine. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Turner (1:03:21)
Their version of Christianity is very political and yours isn't. Now, two people who love Christian nationalism, they may bond better.

Jess (1:03:30)
Yeah, I know. It's not a sin. It's not a sin. It's not the morbid skill. I agree.

Todd Turner (1:03:32)
Let them go do it.

if you got to know what to identify to know where the problems are and you might as well do it early.

Jess (1:03:38)
Yeah, you have to know when you walk around and it's important

to you. Sometimes you have to do the work yourself first before you even go out there.

Todd Turner (1:03:43)
That's exactly right. Okay. I hope this helps. wish we had ⁓ landed the plane better, but it's good enough to know there's a problem. It has to be addressed and don't take it flippantly. And if you listen to any of this and you thought, I don't do any of those things. Well, that may be a problem too. Like take the word Christian out there and mean it means something. It should be something. You're either a follower of the way or you're not the mean you're perfect. But if you're, if somebody's not, it doesn't hold.

Jess (1:03:54)
Hmm, yeah.

Todd Turner (1:04:11)
the Bible, the truths of the Bible and their relationship with Christ, ⁓ highly, well, that's a problem and it's not gonna work, period.

Jess (1:04:21)
Yeah, and we're doing it right this time guys, so don't know, don't worry.

Todd Turner (1:04:23)
All right,

awesome. Thank you very much. Look forward to this next one, because we're going to go deeper even. All right, thank you.

Jess (1:04:32)
Thanks.