Rediscovering Yourself After Divorce | Denise Milliken

What happens when the roles you built your life around suddenly disappear? In this raw and real episode, Todd Turner sits down with longtime friend and Texas real estate agent Denise Milliken to talk about life after divorce—from empty nesting to learning how to change toilets solo. Denise opens up about the quiet loneliness, the awkward holiday moments, and the hard work of building a life that feels like you. If you’ve ever wondered who you are without a partner, this episode will resonate.

🔹 Triggers of loneliness no one talks about
 🔹 “Boy work,” broken sinks, and building self-worth
 🔹 The truth about dating apps and independent women
 🔹 Why embracing your new identity is essential

This conversation aligns with Module 7 of the UnYoked Divorce Recovery Course, where we walk through how to release old labels and live fully in the identity God is forming in you.

In this conversation, Todd Turner and Denise Milliken explore the complexities of navigating life after divorce, focusing on the challenges of self-discovery, the impact of loneliness, and the dynamics of dating. They discuss the importance of personal growth and faith in recovery, as well as the expectations that come with modern dating. Through their candid dialogue, they emphasize the need for individuals to find their identity and embrace the journey of healing.

Denise Bio

I'm Denise Milliken, a real estate agent proudly serving the North Dallas area. I'm also a mom to three beautifully smart grown children—so yes, that technically makes me an empty nester... if I’d just get around to changing the locks.

I’m passionate about serving my community, especially when it comes to supporting our unhoused neighbors, who hold a special place in my heart. Outside of work, I love spending time with friends, jet skiing on the lake, and tackling DIY projects around my house—some more successful than others!

Chapters

• 0:00 The Journey of Divorce and Identity
• 8:10 Navigating Loneliness and Self-Discovery
• 13:09 Triggers of Loneliness
• 19:13 Overcoming Life's Challenges
• 27:12 Embracing Change and Self-Discovery
• 33:02 The Challenges of Independence in Relationships
• 40:39 Understanding Roles in Relationships
• 52:54 The Impact of First Impressions
• 1:02:48 The Journey of Personal Growth
• 1:08:30 Embracing Life's Trials for Growth

Transcript

Todd Turner (00:02.104)
little pop-up.

Todd Turner (00:07.352)
When you're going through divorce, when you're thinking about it, your friends tell you, you'll be better off. You'll find somebody better. Life will just be so much better if you get away, get out of that situation. And then you do it and you exchange one pain for another. It's not that easy. Sometimes finding your legs after divorces is hard work and finding your new identity is not easy. And today we're just going to talk about that journey.

Denise (00:16.861)
.

Todd Turner (00:36.844)
the pitfalls of that journey. One of my favorite recording artists is a guy named Ray Wiley Hubbard. He has a song he starts all his concerts with called Rabbit. And it's very, it's like a child, a rhythmic nursery rhyme, but it starts with, saw this old dog chasing this rabbit and I said to the rabbit, are you going to make it? And the rabbit said, I got to. And I just love that line because it's deep with philosophy.

Denise (00:40.061)
.

Todd Turner (01:06.924)
It's just what choice do I have? I have to make it. So today I brought on a really good friend of mine, Denise Milliken. She is a real straight agent in North Dallas. Denise, thank you for joining us today.

Denise (01:20.809)
Thank you for having me. I'm excited about doing this. I it's going to be fun.

Todd Turner (01:25.326)
Well, let me say something to you and to the listening audience. The reason, well, Dees and I are friends. We're friends for a thousand reasons. But one of the things I really like about her is she's real. She's raw. You're going to hear that today. I have friends, especially with what I do for a living with this podcast. A lot of people talk about their healing and how they've healed. you know, I really put in the work and, all the things, right.

Well, you know, what's the Shakespeare line? I think the lady protest too much. A lot of people just say they're healed. And the thing about Denise I like is she'll admit when things suck and when it's hard and she doesn't pretend she's hazard crap together, which is the kind of personality I like because I like people who are real and raw and admit when something sucks, it sucks. Why pretend that it doesn't? And so Denise, that's what

I thought I picked you today because I thought this topic was wonderful because you and I have talked about how hard being single is. And I'm going to bring up a moment that you may not even agree with the statement, but I remember this statement from about three years ago. You were having a bad day and you told me Todd is bad as my marriage was. I sometimes wonder if I should have just stuck in it because it might've been better than this.

You may not even agree with that, but at that moment you did because, what that does is how hard this is this navigating. So before we jump into life now as a single person, let's go back. Like I didn't know you 10 years ago. If I would have looked into your life 10 years ago, who were you? Give a little bit of your backstory. What was your scenario? And then who, would you describe yourself as a person? Like who were you or who did you?

Denise (02:55.648)
Okay.

Todd Turner (03:22.776)
project to be.

Denise (03:25.168)
10 years ago, gosh, I mean, I'm still that same person today, but if you met me 10 years ago, I...

only had and I was completely focused on the mom role. And so I was my kid's mom, the Dr. Laura Schlesinger, the thing, I am my kid's mom. And that's the hat that I wore and was and probably was a part of the deterioration of my

One of many reasons of the marriage was I feel I was a mom first instead of a wife first. And I think a lot of moms can, know, a husband can, you know, wait and this and that, but my kids can't. And it's so not looking back and even giving advice to others. like, that is not the way it is supposed to be. It is not the way it is supposed to be.

Todd Turner (04:29.294)
It's, it's an easy trap, right? It's a so easy trap because you feel like you're doing good and you're doing your work as a mom, but people forget that the healthy part of being a wife first sort of helps. Yeah. I can imagine that. Okay. So you're divorced. How, do you like, how does it reshape how you think about yourself? Like what, what would you say? Who are you now?

Denise (04:32.046)
Absolutely.

Todd Turner (04:58.316)
Yet you're still mom, maybe an emptiness mom, yeah, I mean, do you, did it change the way you feel about yourself? Does it feel your value of yourself?

Denise (05:09.487)
Yeah, I think it definitely put me in, I think I would have been fine doing that role forever. And I still am, you I'm still mom. But I think at some point, the empty nest, I would hope that it would have shifted over to, you know, I am Brian's wife. I don't know, I think I was always okay.

with finding my identity as a partner of someone. And so divorce definitely kind of is, I can't hide behind that anymore. And as the kids got older, you they didn't want me in their activities. I'm not room mom, you know, when they're a senior in high school, even though I wanted to, that's for sure. You know, they, so I had to find who is Denise. And I don't know,

if I would have found or if I'm still, I mean, I want to say, who is Denise? I'm still looking who is Denise. You know, as I sit here even with my kids today, like, get a job. Do you know what you want to do? You know, they're 22 to 25 years old and I'm thinking, I'm 55. I still don't know what I want to do. So it's okay. But we have that pressure of, you know, finding who we are. And I think I'm still

Todd Turner (06:27.405)
Yeah.

Denise (06:36.142)
I think I'm still looking. I think it forced me to not hide behind and be okay with just, am my husband's wife, my kid's mom. Who is Denise? Denise is a real estate agent. Denise is a philanthropist. Denise serves her community and these type of things. And I'm glad.

Todd Turner (07:01.912)
Yeah, it's in that interesting. mean, I don't like speaking with, you know, blanket statements, but I was even talking to my ex wife the other day and we both were, you know, sometimes we chat about, you know, the tragedy of divorce, right? It's, you know, it's not like we're talking about getting back together, but we, call it what it is. You know, it was a tragic, our marriage break up was a tragedy. was not a fixable one, not the either one of us wants a fix, but, but

When we were talking about it, we're like, had we not gone through it, I wouldn't be who I am. And she said, I wouldn't be who I am. I am either because it forced us to make decisions. We probably would have never made because you're in a marriage. You're like, you just, you adapt to the situation and then it's good enough for, you know, my, my job is to pour into that and you don't really point to yourself. And when you're alone, you finally are.

Denise (07:43.758)
Yeah.

Denise (07:54.17)
Right.

Todd Turner (08:00.834)
forced in the, to go look in a mirror that you're the only one standing in the mirror. And you have to say, who, who am I and what do I want to be? And what was I? And you have to do all that healing and stuff. And it, it's ugly. It's messy. Not everybody does a good job with it. And I remember thinking when I got divorced, I thought I'll meet somebody in a year or two, year or two, you know, I'll go find somebody. And it took me a long time.

Denise (08:15.993)
All right.

Todd Turner (08:31.32)
to finally realize I got a lot of work to do. And so I'm at seven years and I feel like you like I'm still learning and growing and I'm not even sure I'm ready. I don't even know where the finish line is. Does that make sense?

Denise (08:45.975)
Right, right. And with that too, I mean, I look forward to, I'm hopeful to be in a relationship someday. And I do have that thought that it's going to be a different relationship than if I was still with my ex-husband. Is, know, every time we went out to dinner, the focus was always around our family.

And I don't know if everybody else is like that or if that was just us, but it was somewhere in the conversation. It was about the family and it was not about us. And I feel when the right person comes into my life, how neat that's going to be to be, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about each other's kids, but the relationship's going to be based on us. And

you know, growing and doing that. And so I kind of look forward to that opportunity.

Todd Turner (09:46.734)
You know, you and I are probably, this is not going to be our last episode. I really want to get into the dating and that mindset, but I am, I'm going to say this to tie these thoughts together. I spent quite a bit of time trying to find my new me. So I would be a better partner for somebody. Sort of what you're saying is like, I kept projecting what the new partner will be like. What that new relationship will be that like, and then plus you start thinking about empty nesting and then you're like, well, I don't have kids anymore.

Denise (10:05.932)
Mm-hmm.

Denise (10:11.384)
you

Todd Turner (10:16.525)
And all I have is a spouse. So I'm going to focus on the, on the spouse, right? Well, I actually, I must say the other day, a year plus ago, I finally realized I can't just aim at this future mythical person. I need to aim at me. Like what do, what is Todd five years from now wishing Todd did today?

Denise (10:44.153)
Yeah. Person yeah.

Todd Turner (10:44.504)
So that that guy can be a better guy. I'm I don't that spouse means nothing. Like if I find him, I find him. If I don't, I don't. can't be five years down the road wishing. And so I switch my healing from let me be a good husband to let me be a good Todd Turner. Person and then that person will benefit from that. But I don't have the lens of looking for a partner in my healing anymore, my healing and my

Mindset is always what what makes Todd Turner happy. What am I doing to invest into myself? What hobbies do I want to create all that stuff? I it's a sort of a selfish limbs if you will, but I think it's a good selfish limbs. Do you think that way as well or or what percentage of you is thinking? I'm single. I need a spouse. I'm single. I need a spouse versus that person may never come in. You know, what is?

Denise (11:30.956)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (11:43.416)
Denise gonna do for Denise today?

Denise (11:46.52)
think, you know, it's neat because over the years that we have been friends and we've chatted, I definitely think that there's a male perspective and then there's a female perspective on that. In the sense of, or just even you and I, maybe this is just me, but you, when you have been in relationships and they're over, you're like moving on, going. And I'm like, are you sad?

Do you think about him? And those type of things. So I think as a female, or again, just me, we hold on to things deeper and it's harder to release that and do those things. So I don't even know if that answered your question, but in the sense of I do, I think when I was first divorced, I thought five year per,

Like I would be married, my kids said it, you're not built to be single. So it was always that I was just instantly going to be back identifying myself as something else. And then as time has gone on, I'm going on eight years, I have had to look at myself in the mirror and go, you know what, that may not be what is for my future.

So am I gonna sit here and be miserable forever? Which there are miserable days. There are those holidays, all that kind of stuff. There's those sad days that it still sucks. Even if you have your life as you, going in a better direction, there's still crappy days that it's just like, well this stinks.

Todd Turner (13:36.942)
Yeah, I totally, I want to, I want to go there, but I'm going to go backwards. This is why that phrase I use all the time. Men are microwaves and women are crock pots is, is, is that I'm a microwave. If I find somebody I like I'm in and I find it it's off, it's off and you guys take longer to glow up and then you can unplug it and it, it takes longer to cool down. And so I think that's the phenomenon you're talking about. Cause you do come back to me. It's like, what if she called you back? Would you take the call?

Denise (13:51.049)
you

Denise (14:04.52)
Two!

Todd Turner (14:05.75)
What, what, what's her name? I don't even remember her name and you're, you're thinking I've gotten some emotional side to it. Like I can't remember her name. That was just like, that was last week. Yeah.

Denise (14:13.13)
Yeah, it was. And then I'm like, aren't you sad? Like, let me help you with this. And you're like, nope.

Todd Turner (14:18.712)
No, no, I want to talk about it. Okay, but let's talk about those hard days. So it's really funny. Let's talk about, let's put a word on it. Loneliness. I can still have a great life. Like I travel, I do cool stuff for a living and like I have a really good life. I get lonely still. Like there are times I get, I'm lonely.

Denise (14:44.979)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (14:48.0)
in my own house and and I guess I don't know if it's wrong to leave think that somebody else being in it would change everything like I still crave that partnership and so I'm triggered. I guess my question to you is what triggers you into loneliness or yeah, let's start there because I have a second follow-up question. But what what are the things that what makes you feel?

Denise (14:51.094)
you

Let me think. Okay. mean, there's so many, I feel like, I mean, you know, there's holidays is a big one. It's a big one. only because, I mean, I have a wonderful community that, you know, I could, I could have somebody to go to a concert with at any time, but

Todd Turner (15:20.536)
Bear.

Denise (15:43.178)
want to be sitting at their table for Thanksgiving in, you know, that intimate family time. So I try it as, you know, I don't know. So holidays, holidays are big. Holidays are, are definitely a trigger. And then, you know, like I said, I have somebody that I can always call for a concert, those type of things. But there is something different.

than just having your person that, hey, we're doing, you know, what was on your mind for this weekend? Okay, we're doing, you know, those type of things. Travel, travel's a big one. You know, again, everybody can have tons of friends that you want to go do stuff with. And I even find it funny that when I was in a marriage, there were the girl trips that you long to do.

And now, you know, we're the girl weekend, I'm going to get away or all this stuff. You were always looking to get away from the person that was there. And then when you're alone, you could have endless girls weekends. Yeah. And you miss the everyday, hey, let's run up. Let's do.

Todd Turner (16:48.236)
Yeah, those were special. Yeah.

Every trip's a girl trip. Yeah, it means nothing.

Denise (17:07.486)
Costco and then go to lunch afterwards, you kind of thing. I mean, you miss just the everyday. Yeah. Yeah. So that triggers.

Todd Turner (17:12.75)
Doing life together. Yeah. So it's funny. It's funny you say that. So here are my two, those probably spur more for you is I work from home, it doesn't, regardless, whether I'm out traveling for work or coming from a client or walking out of this office, you open that door. I have nobody to tell about my day. And that's when I noticed Bill lonely. It's like, I'd love to tell somebody how my day went or like, I had a win there. Let me.

Who do I tell I have a I just did this thing. Nobody know but yeah, I can call family. It's like it's not the same. It's just not the same and my other trigger for me and this is I don't know about embarrassing but I'm telling the world but is watching is watching Netflix is I have a queue of shows. want to watch that. I will not watch till I watch I go those are

Denise (17:44.545)
Yeah.

Denise (18:01.94)
Tell us.

Todd Turner (18:12.344)
Couple shows. I don't want to go through a series. know, TV is a talking sport. Like I want to hang up and say, that director did this. And did you notice that in the storyline? Like I want to talk about it. And there's just some shows. I'm like, I'm not watching that. And so I've got a hundred shows to watch in Netflix. And every time I flip by him, I just make people alone. I'm I'm not watching that. watching that. watching that. Still seven, eight years later.

Denise (18:42.5)
I don't think I have the shows, but I do have a folder of travel that, that would be, that's a couple trip. And I want to go there with that person. I mean, I don't want to stay in a

Todd Turner (18:49.974)
As soon you want to go.

Denise (18:56.781)
over the ocean, see the fish under my feet with my kids in a bunk bed, you know, or alone or even on a girls trip. So I have a folder of travel that I would love to do.

Todd Turner (19:14.862)
All right, so let's be honest. This is what I like about you being real is we have our moments. have days, you know, sometimes it's a moment. Sometimes they're just a little split second stabs and we move on because we have life. And there's other times where you have time to sit because you have nothing to tell you not to. So you sort of get in these, I'm going to call them thunks where you just like, God, this is not the life I thought I was going to live. And I'm not sure where it's going to go.

I don't want to be a pretender of like, don't live an Instagram life where I let me just go out and show the world how great I'm doing. Sometimes it sucks. So is it just the fact that somebody's got to pay the bills? Is that what motivates you? Like what, how do you get yourself out of those punks? What, you know, is it Bible reading? it scripture is the fact? Well, if I don't get up, I'm not getting paid. Like what motivates you out of those moments?

Denise (20:12.426)
I think that's part of it and I think part of it

is still wanting to be an example to my children of sometimes life does not give you what the plan is and still gotta get up, get going, do it. Bills is a big portion of it. Gotta keep a roof over my head. But I look at that with one income.

Todd Turner (20:20.899)
Mm.

Denise (20:44.551)
You know, will I be able to retire as soon as I would have wanted to retire? Will I be able, you know, to have a lake house? You know, probably, who knows? Who knows? I mean, that would be great. And I don't want to say that single women or men don't. But you know, it takes more work because of doing it off of one, or it takes longer.

Todd Turner (20:50.446)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (21:13.486)
That's right.

Denise (21:13.744)
because you have to save that much more rather than having a combined income. yeah, no, I think my kids and just longevity of wanting a good life is what pulls me out of the funk. And I'm self-employed just like you. there's no, I'm not doing, nobody, yeah, I don't, or yeah, I don't have a day off, but there's no one.

Todd Turner (21:36.93)
Don't get a day off.

Denise (21:43.622)
I don't have to be somewhere at nine o'clock. So those funks are hard for self-employed people. I will say that because I have had the days where I'm depressed and I go, you know what? I'm just not even getting out of bed. I will watch movies in my PJs and Uber Eats. You know what I Nobody's telling me not to. And there's those days.

Todd Turner (22:04.034)
Yeah, and there's nobody to tell you not to.

I tell my friends that ask me about being single because sometimes people that are in their marriage, they've got their marriage to do it and they look at me and they're like, man, you live a great life and man, it must be so nice. And I'm like, me tell you something, being single, the greatest thing about being single is I can do whatever I want when I want. The worst part of being single is I can do whatever I want when I want.

Denise (22:37.362)
Whenever I want. Yeah.

Todd Turner (22:38.112)
It's so bad because no one's going to walk over to your bed and say get out of bed or I need you to do this honey or hey, are you okay? Like no.

Denise (22:43.134)
Yeah.

Denise (22:47.217)
Or here's a big trigger, because that's one big one. When you're sick, who brings you, who runs to CVS to go get your cough medicine? No, you gotta get, you're all dying, I'm death, door, you know, and you gotta go get your own medicine. But that's a big one, is having a partner that would, hey, I'm sicker than sick, I'm not getting out of bed, will you go get me medicine? Yeah.

Todd Turner (23:14.08)
Yeah, it's, wish I had this phrase better, better memorized, but you know, joy is doubled and burdens are halved. And that's true in your relationship. And when you carry it all, you have, like I said, you walk out the door, you have nobody to tell the good news to. And then when you have a burden, you have nobody to share the burden with. And it is hard. So let me, let me ask you this. What, what would you say the Denise now versus

Denise (23:27.463)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Todd Turner (23:43.63)
two years ago, you and I used to argue about travel because it was like, please go, go do something. But what have you probably done that the older you didn't think you could pull off? Like what are some things that you've actually got some wins on? I'm like, you know what? I used to not, like you were, you used to not volunteer as much as you used to do now, but is that a win? Like, is that one of the things you're like, you know what? I'm going to go do the things I want to do or.

Denise (23:49.099)
I know.

Denise (24:06.819)
Right.

Todd Turner (24:11.734)
serve in ways I used to not. mean, I don't want to force that one on you, but are there other things even that you have grown into finding your legs, your single legs, if you will.

Denise (24:25.316)
think I've always served. that's, you know, I think that has always been the same. I mean, I definitely have more time to serve because a relationship definitely is a component of your time. And so when you're not in a relationship, you have a little, you have more time to do that or you have more time to waste. But what am I?

where, I don't know, I don't know. What am I doing better? I mean, things around the house. I think for a long time, I kept waiting. So there would be, you like you have your list of TV shows. I would have my list of when I get a man in my life, I'm gonna have him help me paint the room or I'm gonna redo all the landscaping. And then, it's the years.

kept clicking on, I was like, yeah, I think I might need to tackle that on my own. And, and, and that was, it was learning. mean, my first changing a toilet, oh my gosh, I like propped the phone and videoed it because I wanted everybody to see that I was doing this on my own. I did an electrical, like a fan two years ago. No way. I would be like, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. And

Todd Turner (25:42.06)
you were doing it.

Todd Turner (25:51.502)
I've noticed that about you is I called you one day. I mean, this is five years ago and you were out. think you were pulling weeds or do it, whatever it was. It had five cuss words in it because you were not happy. You were just like, I'm blankety blank in the blank you blame because I got nobody to blankety blank blank. You like, Oh, okay. Well, she's having a bad day. And then, you know, probably even last year I called you one time and like, Oh, I'm out here. We're gonna plant some plants. I'm like, Whoa, that's so different of a

Denise (25:52.644)
You gotta just do it.

Denise (26:05.301)
Yeah.

Denise (26:20.003)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (26:20.11)
because you were, you were still bitter about why am I having to do the man's job, the boy work. And then now you're more of like, well, this is just life and I'm alone and I'm going to do what needs to be done. And I was seeing that in you. Can I, can I, I want your opinion on this. I was talking to someone the other day and I think that, you know, weird Texas, so was tornadoes.

Denise (26:29.337)
Boy work. Yeah. Yeah.

Todd Turner (26:49.836)
season right now. And so sirens are going off around town. And a girl told me, she goes, I remember the old days where people would check in on single women. Like no one called no one. I died, you know, but anybody even know I'm in this rubble. And I thought about that. And I was like, well, that's interesting philosophy that she has. Like men used to come check on single women. was like, told her, go, well, y'all used to bake us pies too. When we showed up, you don't do that either. So you're not doing your part either.

Denise (27:06.861)
Okay.

Denise (27:14.479)
You

You're perfect.

Todd Turner (27:19.564)
Right. But what, yeah, like what, what is the difference between a man's role and a female's role? And is that just an American thing we all made up of, who's supposed to mow the yard? Who's supposed to take out trash and, and do dishes like, I was even on a profile the other day online and a girl goes, you know, you, you put, you know, red lights or the green flags or these red fields. If a man cooks swipe left, that's my job. I don't want to date anybody who cooks. go, wait, I can.

Think of a hundred women that would say backwards like, you cook. That's great. So everybody has their opinions of what's a whose job, but I think maybe it's what you used to do in your marriage is sort of what the standard is. You know, what are your thoughts about that? Like, did you, did you have a traditional role where he did X, Y, and you did the other and you still see things that way?

Denise (27:46.41)
Wow!

Denise (27:51.161)
Yeah. Yeah.

Denise (28:09.255)
Probably a little bit. Yeah, and I think it's more a generational thing because I've noticed that you know our you know kids these days don't seem to have such You know compartmentalize however There is stuff like if I say To my daughter, you know dump the trash. She'll say that's a boy's job You know and right. I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did and you know

Todd Turner (28:31.731)
You taught her that though.

Denise (28:36.982)
where if I asked my son to vacuum, he would say, I think he said, I think that he refers to it as pink and blue. That's a pink job. You know, that's pink or something. But yeah, I mean, that had to change over. But with my choice, you know, I think five years ago, I was complaining about boy work, doing yard work. And I think I had to make that pivot of, okay, I either get out of this house,

Todd Turner (28:45.006)
That's funny.

Denise (29:06.603)
with all this boy work and put myself in something that's more comfortable where, you know, I don't have that. Or what's more? What means more to me? Do I stay in a home where that does, I've got to tackle that? What's more important is what it came down to. And so then it was, you know what? I better just embrace this. And I think

seeing the accomplishment, know, change in the toilet, change in the light, and then going, huh, that was okay. That, you know, the more you do, the more that you realize that you get the self satisfaction of, okay, that felt kind of good. All right, I can do that.

Todd Turner (29:54.414)
Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm fascinated by this concept of people who get divorced. I'm going to call it in their 40s to 50s. Because divorce is doubling down on empty nesting. Empty nesting already has its own issues because you're like you say you're mom or you're a dad and then they leave and like, well, what's this marriage all about? Because we don't have kids here. That's a phenomenally con.

a complicated situation that causes divorce fights and it also calls couples to grow together. It depends how you tackle it. But when you pull everybody out, when you divorce near the time your kids go away, it's different. It's a double different. And you do have to figure out like who am I? What do I want to be? You know, what was I? Who am I and what I want to be? And then you have to decide.

Who am I going to be regardless of I have anybody at all? Yeah. And it's, it's a journey. It's it's there's winds along the way. I actually have a divorce class now besides this podcast and I do a whole module on finding your new identity. Cause it is a journey to go do that. And you know, I, I think I encourage people to journal journal it better because I know we're we're talking about some milestones along the way.

Denise (30:55.39)
Right, right.

Todd Turner (31:20.878)
But now that I've done it, it's easier for me to go back and go backwards and say, here are some things, exercises I wish I would have done or I did and it worked. Because I think that growth is, it's critical because what can happen is there's a personality type of I'm going to stay busy. So you don't have to numb you don't, you don't, let me, let me phrase that differently. You stay busy. So you don't have to think about it.

You're always going, you're always doing, you're always saying yes to things because you're just like, I'm not going to sit in the silence. And then the other part is sitting in the silence and being a recluse. Woe is me. And then the third one is numbing is just like, I'm going to numb and sometimes you can numb going out and sometimes you can numb staying home. You know, it's the dangerous part of drinking or you're

Denise (32:03.084)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (32:18.19)
horn or name your addiction, name your thing. It's just, you're saying, I don't like this. And instead of hitting it head on, I'm just going to pretend it doesn't exist. And it's, it's, it's a big, it's, it's really a tough journey, to get your legs. And that's why I'm so thankful. I mean, honestly, this is a weird statement. I don't think you've ever heard this out of me. am thankful. I didn't not get remarried in two years.

because that marriage wouldn't have been much better than the first one. I wasn't ready.

Denise (32:52.672)
Right. I agree with you. I think there's a healing process and I remember when you were recently divorced.

you refer to it a lot as healing of, you know, I'm taking a nap. it, it was healing the whole thing, almost like physically, mentally, like your body goes through a change and you just need that time. But I do agree with you. don't, I'm...

I see my friends that have been remarried within five years and it seems to be, I don't know, read Google says, if you're not remarried within five years, the chances are, you know, so, you know, of course I have that fear, but then I just feel, do I live in fear? Do I carry on and figure it out? Figure it out.

Todd Turner (33:54.626)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, mean, I, I think it's dangerous too. When you finally, this is so funny. I had this conversation the other day with someone. This is, you know, write me a letter. If you don't like what I'm going to say, cause this is sort of gender specific. Maybe wrong, but I'm from my observations and I have plenty. Cause I date more women than y'all women do. So I have my perspective. I, I can see patterns that y'all don't see.

Denise (34:18.378)
You do.

Todd Turner (34:24.488)
And sometimes by the time you find the woman who has her crap together and she's independent, then she has a wall up that says I've worked so hard to finally be happy with me that there now they look at you like, well, you better fit into my box because I've made a perfect box over here. I love it. I love it. And then now they're the hardest ones to date and break through because they work so hard.

Denise (34:40.607)
Mm.

Todd Turner (34:53.134)
create the new them. They'd be well, I won't tolerate anybody who doesn't blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, that's not a relationship because two independent people, we're not going to just share a roof and a bed. have to share lives. And by the time you get your crap together, you've still got to stay flexible and open for that other person or else you're going to die alone.

Denise (34:54.761)
Yeah.

Denise (35:16.043)
I remember you saying that one of the things you hated on the dating profile was, what was it? Like, I don't need a man. I want a man or I don't want a man. was either, and I was like, well, I think mine says that I want, you know, and you were like, no, I don't. I want them to need me. I don't, I want, is that how it went? Want, yeah.

Todd Turner (35:29.324)
Yeah, it was that and it was the independence.

Todd Turner (35:40.526)
It was, I used to gripe and I see the word independent. was a big red flag because it was like, I don't want somebody independent. I mean, yeah, we're all independent. We're all paying our own bills. I got it. So what do you mean by that? I'm independent. Like, so I was always trying to understand it. And then it was like, I don't want a man. need a man. I'm like, well, okay. Well, I don't want a woman. need it. You know, like it's a dangerous thing to say because it implies so much and it

Denise (35:45.683)
Yes. Yeah.

Todd Turner (36:10.126)
feels to me like it's saying, I have my life together. I have my routines. I know where I get my peace from. I've created a world that's really, really great. And if you can fit in it, great. And if you can't, you're not. Well, that limits who you're going to bring in 100 % because

Now you're judging me and interviewing me to see if I fit in versus trying to get to know me. You know, and it's like the same with, it's sort of the same thing. think when I say that back to them, well, I just need a woman who fits in my life because I'm going to do everything I'm going to go do and you better fit in. I'm not going to have you. Well, that would make for a crappy relationship. I want a new relationship where you bring the best of you and the worst of you. And I bring the best of me and the worst of me.

And we build something new together. But I want to be the healthiest person I can be going in, but I hold it loose. still want to hold it off. I want to have hobbies. I want Todd in five years to be so happy with what Todd's doing today that he thanks me. Like, thank you for learning how to salsa dance. Thank you for learning Spanish. Thank you for going to therapy and working on that trauma thing.

You know, thank you for grinding and hustling so we can retire early. Yeah, whatever, just whatever it is. just want to, I am working for the future me, the future person I meet that maybe my spouse will benefit from all that. But I don't want to have a rigid attitude of I'm here to create a perfect life. I'm too old to bring nonsense in. Well, guess what marriage is? Bring a nonsense in. I mean, none of us are perfect.

Denise (38:00.265)
Nonsense. Yeah. Chaos. Yeah. It's gonna be, it's gonna come in with yuck and beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Todd Turner (38:06.135)
Yeah.

nuances and problems and challenges. Yes. So yeah, it bothers me when I hear women. mean, it's, I'm not picking on women for that, but I would tell you you, this is a Christian audience. So in the model of what a man is to a woman and being spiritual leadership. And I mean, there's a lot of nuances in that. They're not, everybody will be on the same page with what they all their beliefs.

But this idea of God design, like God wired men a certain way, God wired women a certain way. This idea that divorce causes women to take on masculine roles. that doesn't mean just mowing the yard. There's masculine, typically masculine roles that women have to inherit. And then by the time they get their stride in it, they're like, yeah, I got this.

Denise (38:42.995)
Thank

Denise (38:52.965)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (39:05.038)
I got this and it's like, but you're always having to get it. You don't not that I want you to like I want you to release some of that stuff. And I think maybe maybe I'm sort of telling you and asking at the same time. Like is there certain things you're doing that gets your holding it loosely to say I will give this up in a heartbeat, but I'll do it for now. But you're willing to say I would release some of these things or are you just get calloused?

Denise (39:14.121)
That just goes to show that.

Todd Turner (39:33.622)
over time to say, it. I'm going to create the life I want for myself. And I'm not going to even consider somebody else coming in and running that. What are your thoughts on that?

Denise (39:44.35)
I hope not, because that's a good way to put it, is I hope that I wouldn't be so callous of

You know, I mean, in going back to, I mean, in the biblical, I don't believe we were built or meant to do life alone. I believe we were built to have a partner. Now, when is, you know, God has a sense of humor with some of this, I'm sure of it. But I mean, but to go even back to like, you know, saying that we're independent and saying things like that.

You know, I would always, you know, we just felt differently in that sense of, I think that there needs to be some grace. I think we put it or say it because if we aren't saying it, writing it, putting it, presenting it, we may break, you know, that, and that's a good sense is, you know, we're...

Todd Turner (40:42.914)
Yeah.

Denise (40:49.586)
There are men roles and there are women roles and in divorce, a woman, I don't know, like see, that's where I go. think it's harder for women because I feel like a man going, well you have to take on women roles. What? What?

Todd Turner (41:08.77)
Yeah.

Denise (41:09.491)
Cooking? I mean, you're all rea- I don't know. I don't know. And then it's probably so the other way, you know, like me killing bugs is a man's job, but you know, what am I going to do? I've had a snake in my house. I've had to remove a snake. I've had a mouse, you know, those kinds of things. So I've had to remove them. Otherwise I would just sit here with farmants in my house.

Todd Turner (41:16.376)
No, no, it's, it's...

Right.

Todd Turner (41:32.246)
Okay. This, I'm going to get in trouble with this because I haven't thought long enough to, develop a fully mature thought, but I'm going to say it because I can process it out loud and I'll come up in another episode and clean this up because I don't think I'm going to get, I'm going to nail it on this, but there let's, let's just make some assumptions that we're going to define some of the biblical roles, right? Men are hunter gatherers.

Denise (41:35.451)
You

Denise (41:43.197)
K.

Todd Turner (42:00.898)
You know, we pursue things. kill things where we go out. The woman is our helper, right? He was a helper. And we can still be men without a woman because we do all the things that we do. It's better with a woman, but we can still do it when you're a helper and you have everybody help them. Now you're helping yourself. And then now you're out being the killer and the whatever. And so you're, you're getting a role.

Denise (42:08.903)
Yeah.

Denise (42:16.752)
Right. Right.

Todd Turner (42:28.814)
You're getting an extra role on top of your role where we're just keeping our role. If that makes sense, so I do. I hear you, but I'm going to say something now, by the way, what I'm going to say, if you've seen the clip, I will be butchering this, but maybe I'll find it and I'll put it out somewhere. But I saw a clip this week and I put it on my Facebook story. I do stories. They disappear, but I don't like putting stuff all on my wall, but I should have.

Denise (42:34.716)
I agree.

Denise (42:55.568)
Yes. Right.

Todd Turner (42:58.444)
I probably saved this because it was so good. It was a little petite woman. I'm going to call her in her thirties, maybe. And she was a New Yorker and she was in front of a microphone like she was standing at a conference or something. And she so beautifully talked about this. And she said she was talking, I think, to married women who did not think highly of their husbands. And she says,

I care if you think your husband's a bum, don't care if you think he's lazy, I don't think if he sucks in a hundred different ways, God still gave him a role and he even at his worst is better at it than you are. And she goes, think about it like it raining in New York City. And she goes, you know how those little places pop up where they sell you those little $2 umbrellas.

Denise (43:41.094)
Hmm.

Todd Turner (43:53.742)
Well, some people may walk around with a $500 umbrella, but that $200, $200 umbrella will still cover you. Your husband's job is to cover you. He may be a cheap $2 umbrella, but you don't have an umbrella and you're going to get wet, but that $2 will cover you. My job is to help him cover me. He's the cover. I'm his helper.

Denise (44:19.501)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (44:21.312)
It's wired in him to do that. It's wired in him to protect me from the rain. He may suck at a hundred other things, but he can do that job. My job is to help him. So as he's covering me, I don't poke at him and nag at him because he's doing his job. And she goes, I mean, I like all the other stuff, but he has a role. And I think that's, I mean, I was blown away. Sorry for those who have heard it. That was a horrible job. did a way better job at it, but it was just mind opening.

Denise (44:32.711)
I think that's it.

Todd Turner (44:51.022)
I was like, wow, I've never heard somebody say it this good. When we're divorced, I'm fascinated by when you're dating, when you flip into the roles because you know, I don't have the opinion that a man is over a woman. I have an opinion that a husband is over a wife, not a man over a woman, which I think that's why a lot of churches get it wrong because a man, you know, like the pastor of the elder,

Denise (45:03.814)
Okay.

Todd Turner (45:20.608)
He thinks he's over that one. Now, that's not your wife. That's a woman. She's equals even Steven to you. You don't have any authority over that woman at all. Your wife and you y'all have some roles, but man and woman is I'm not I'm not over a woman walking down the street, right? I have no authority. I'm not her cover. I'm not her armor bearer, if you will. And so when you date somebody, when do you become a leader?

Denise (45:32.775)
Okay.

Todd Turner (45:48.866)
When are you a leader? When you were a protector or whatever? And I think a lot of guys back to the microwave deal. A lot of guys come in and they try to love bomb and show you all man. I'm this this this this and this and then you know because different people's personalities soon as they sort of conquer it. They move on to the next thing and you're like you're over here like wait a minute. I thought you were. I thought you were protecting me. I thought you cared about me and I thought it was going to be this way because you were turning on your back. Your your crock pot.

warming up to the idea. And then he left and then you are like, screw this enough of this and I'm just gonna unplug the truck pipe, if you will. Right? I'm on to something here.

Denise (46:27.004)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think the only thing I would add in there is, you know, when you said the pastor is not over a woman. If what I hear and what I see though is what is expected of, and I won't even use the pastor role kind of thing, because there might be more that, but I mean, if you and I were out to lunch as friends, so we're equals.

but a robber came in. I would look to you as the man to protect the female. Does that make sense? So it is that gender role of and yet a woman. I mean, I'm trying to think like, I mean, I don't know. I'm even going gross. Like if a man burps, it's almost like.

Todd Turner (47:13.09)
Yeah, it is.

Denise (47:30.629)
I don't, you know, it's kind of, I don't know, it's not, because that's gross, it's probably a horrible example. But like when a girl does it, it's just like, my gosh, you know, and it's just like, really, you know, I don't know, I would really have to think of a better example than that. But there just is these men and women roles. And we do look to men, whether they're with us or not.

Todd Turner (47:46.638)
The double standard is what you're saying.

It's

Denise (48:00.114)
protect us? I don't know maybe that's why they've always been the president and why they've always

Todd Turner (48:04.44)
Well, don't forget, don't forget. This is why it's so frustrating. I mean, I'm not trying to get political, but the women's lib movement of like, we'll open our own doors. Well, now we're like, we don't know whether we open one, we get cussed at, we open. Yeah. So I open them all. I do.

Denise (48:19.012)
Open our door. Full proof, open the door. Yeah, no. mean, unless you're dating someone who, yeah, doesn't, you know, okay. Yeah. I mean, it's just, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it might be nice. Maybe they'll pick up the bill. You know, we've had, we've had that discussion a lot on, yes. Okay. Yes.

Todd Turner (48:27.65)
But I will not date that person. Yeah, I traditional.

Todd Turner (48:36.302)
Well, that's so what time we've had this discussion and I'm going to go ahead and double down until the world you and I went to a circus a year ago and we had we're friends right you and I go out we probably I hate your turn to pay it's my turn or we split the bill. I don't even think about it because we're friends. I don't even think about it. Well, we went with my sister and brother-in-law to a circus. Well,

They were going to buy their tickets and she looked at me like, you're buying Denise's right? I'm like, no, goes by the neat. No, she elbowed me. Like you're a jerk. I'm like, I did. I had to go tell her. was like, Hey, that's not fair. You're putting me in a gender role. Like if I pay for every girl I ever just go out with I'll be broke, which means I won't be asking anybody to go. Like you're not thinking through my situation. Like I can't pay just because I'm the guy that that's illogical.

Denise (49:15.243)
Yeah

Todd Turner (49:32.94)
We had a big argument.

Denise (49:34.564)
Right, right, no I do remember, because I do remember milking it a little bit with your sister like, yeah, Todd's always cheap, he never pays for me. I totally milked it and worked it because I had her on my side. But with that, I do feel it is a man's responsibility to pay on a date.

Todd Turner (49:39.516)
you did.

You doubled that and put salt on the wound.

Todd Turner (49:58.882)
date I'm fine with. A date that...

Denise (50:00.107)
Okay, but I think there's a lot of, as I've dated, and again, probably a whole other podcast, deeper into dating, but there are a lot of men that are like, okay, well, if I'm not getting something at the end of the night, then we're going Dutch or something like that. And I'm thinking that, again, that's not, and maybe it's the generation thing, but that is not the role. It is the man's, I don't know, I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate. Send the letters to Todd.

Hahaha

Todd Turner (50:30.978)
Well, I mean, this is a whole nother conversation because this idea that if we're, I think women do try to have it both, have their cake and eat it too. It's well, the man needs to pay. We know I need to be pursued. It's like, but are you, are we playing the whole pursue game correctly? Like if I come and offer you marriage is your answer. Yes. But in other words, where, where

How far back are we going in history of whose role is what? Because I'm supposed to exchange two goats for you and you have to come with me because I offered two goats. Like where, how far are we going back here? What culture are we talking about with what's, what does pursue me? And, and, and my argue is I want somebody to pursue me too. I want them to lean into me. It's like, you know, it's really tough. I remember one time.

Denise (51:02.229)
Yes!

you

Denise (51:15.511)
Right.

Todd Turner (51:22.302)
I'm a boy. We are in dating. We slipped into dating, but it's this is all part of the journey of being single. But I hate when people in their profile put almost nothing and you ask them questions. They're like, you me out? I'll tell you in person. No, I'm not dropping 50 bucks to have you walk in the room. And I realize or a hundred bucks and that you're not my person. That's not fair to me. So I'm not doing it.

Denise (51:27.854)
It is.

Denise (51:42.051)
to learn. Yep.

Todd Turner (51:50.542)
So it was like, well, some girls like, well, there's no way I'm not going to date somebody's I'm to be willing to take me out. And then there's people on the internet. Well, never accept a coffee date. Like he doesn't, he doesn't care enough to take you out to a real place. Then you don't need that man's like, was that fair? Like am I supposed to drop $10,000 dating till I find my person when I could just, you can literally on your bio, tell me you have a four year old son. And then I won't be talking to you because I don't want to date some men with a four year old son.

Denise (52:13.347)
you

Denise (52:19.02)
Sure.

Todd Turner (52:20.12)
Like why would, why do y'all think we're supposed to waste time when you could just be upfront and honest right off the bat and then we can realize now we're not made for each other. Let's save you having to get a babysitter putting on all the makeup and doing your stuff and save me from having to do my stuff. We could just end all this nonsense right now.

Denise (52:42.367)
Right. yeah, no, I do. And I get, I think there's a middle, you know, type of thing to that because I'm big on, I'm much better in person. You know, I would rather, rather than this back and forth, know, 20 questions and that whole thing. So I think there's that. But I, you know,

I don't know, someone that doesn't, and it goes on the other side. Again, there's men that don't put anything on their bio and there's just deal breakers, you know, like you had said. mean, small children, that's not necessarily what I want in my life right now. I'm an empty nester and I like that. And, you know, but there are things that come up that I would like to know.

Todd Turner (53:29.998)
That's right.

Todd Turner (53:35.886)
in. Let's talk about that for a hot second because I think it's super cool. It's I hear women in your profile say, take off your sunglasses and don't show me a picture of a fish. Like that's what you'll put. Yeah, everybody owns a Well, well, that's okay. Let's talk about that. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm letting all women in a mindset. This is why some of you women see a picture of a guy's house.

Denise (53:48.767)
holding your fish or your selfie, your gym selfie.

Okay. Okay.

Please.

Todd Turner (54:05.41)
his truck, his boat, his gym picture and the fish. He's saying, I, he's saying I bring back my value to, I'm to protect you supply for you. I'm supposed to do these things and I'm letting you know, I'm capable of that. This is what I've built. This is who I am. I work out. I can protect you. can, I can offer you something. And that's their way to say it.

Denise (54:13.075)
to all those things.

Todd Turner (54:35.438)
I'm not saying it's right, but that's sort of what's going on. And they don't know how the flip phone works to take a dang selfie, which is enough reason not to date somebody. It's 20, 25. They can't take a selfie. Then hit the road, Jack. But it is it's and I think sometimes with the women, it's the same thing. It's like, well, here's my boobs. Here's my look at look how good I can look. Let me put a filter on so I can show you how good I can look because I'm bringing that to the table.

Denise (54:44.737)
You

Todd Turner (55:03.822)
And those people I run away from because I'm like I your looks are going to come and they're going to go. I need the person who I wake up and roll over what you look like. That's the one I need. I want to know what she looks like and I need to know what's in here. Like who are you? Who are you is what I want to know. I don't want to know what you own. I don't want to what you look like on your best day. I don't know what I don't care. What snapchat thought you look like six months ago when you took a picture of yourself on snapchat with some filter.

Denise (55:20.965)
Right.

Denise (55:32.799)
with bunny ears and yeah.

Todd Turner (55:33.806)
What a waste of time and effort. It's just frustrating.

Denise (55:40.225)
But we are so, you know, I mean, first impression. So I think what we're trying to do is put forward that first impression. mean, the filters I get. No, I don't. I don't like the filters because I don't want it to ever be where you walk in and they walk right past me because I don't look anything like my picture. I mean, I try to keep it. So I get that the filters are a little bit too much.

Todd Turner (56:00.492)
Yo yo!

Denise (56:10.548)
But if I have 15 photos on my phone, I'm posting the best one, of course. You know, I'm not posting the one that may show, you know, a little fat here. I'm not posting that one. Yeah. So I get that. But then it was funny too how you go, well, we post the car, the gym, the fish, so we could show that we do all these things. I've never posted like me making.

Todd Turner (56:18.35)
Of course we do. We all do.

Todd Turner (56:23.982)
You have the side view of me eating at a buffet.

Denise (56:40.607)
eggs and me vacuuming to show that I'm the fool, you know, at church doing this. You know, no, I haven't done. But no, I do feel we put our best foot forward in the hope that in this ta ta ta ta ta ta that. Yeah.

Todd Turner (56:41.847)
Right?

Todd Turner (56:49.475)
Right.

Todd Turner (57:00.29)
Here's what I can be to you. I, I, we're going to change this topic real quick, but I, this last month or whatever it was, I were long ago, always say the other day, other day means the word other day comes out of my mouth. means nothing. can be 20 years ago or yesterday, but the other day I had a person who sort of sent some, what I assume were filtered pics. were borderline. And then I went there. I went to their Facebook.

Denise (57:05.203)
Okay.

Denise (57:12.443)
Right, two years ago. Yeah.

Denise (57:25.767)
Yes you told me.

Todd Turner (57:28.78)
And I saw a picture they put in when I say 20 year difference, like 20 year difference. And I'm like, why would you mean, you know, when I meet you in person that I'm going to flip my lid. So how does it do you any good to put a fake picture out there? Like I guys do it. think guys, you know, women, y'all know how to work phones better. So you're probably better at it. But men are horrible from what I understand.

Denise (57:47.139)
Yep.

Todd Turner (57:59.214)
I posted a picture of them 20 years ago to almost show her. what I used to look like, or here's what I look like before I gained 20 pounds and they'll post that picture. It's like, why that's not the guy walking in, but in their mind or saying you're marrying that guy. just happened to not be in shape right now, but man, I was, I could, I might, be again. Yeah. I had hair, but where to pay, I'll have hair again. And they come bald and you're like, what?

Denise (58:03.422)
Right.

Denise (58:18.601)
could be again. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. No, I think it I think it is I think it's the you know or even the illusion of I think I still look like that. You know, I don't know. don't know. But there are some that are just

That is not. And my big thing, being tall, is the height. I mean, don't lie about your height. We're gonna know. Yeah, yeah, we show up and you say you're six foot and you're five five. You know, you don't wanna hop off your bar stool. And it's like...

Todd Turner (58:41.837)
It's good.

Todd Turner (58:51.906)
They're gonna find out.

Todd Turner (59:03.118)
It's hype with men sort of works like weight. It's this idea. say a girl was 120 last time she looked. Well, then she's, you she knows she's a little heavier, but she's like, yeah, I'm 120. And then later it's well, I'm 125. It's like, you're, you're 148 for sure. But you in your head, you're 120 and you just got a couple more pounds to lose. Well, men that aren't sick, six foot is the magic number.

Denise (59:20.815)
boy!

Denise (59:30.004)
It is.

Todd Turner (59:30.958)
So what happens is a guy who's five, nine and a half. He's like, well, I'm five, 10. I mean, I'm five, you know, I'm five, 10. Well, then you're like, well, if I'm five, 10, if I wear boots, I'm five, 11. So then he's five, 11. He goes, you know, all I'm gonna do is just sit up straight. I'm six foot. I'm six foot. And then they'll tell you they're six foot. You're five, nine and a half. That's what you are. But we all play the middle game.

Denise (59:44.338)
So then I'm

Right, right. It's so limited. It just...

Todd Turner (59:58.798)
And yeah, I'm lucky I'm 6'2 and my kids did not end up taller than me, which a lot of people now, the kids are taller, guess with the junk they eat now, but my kids are both shorter than me. And they're like, dad, you're not 6'2, you're not 6'2. I son, I'm 6'2. They go, there you're not. And so I go, all right, let's go. We grabbed the tape measure. I went barefoot. stood up 6'2. I'm still 6'2. I'm 55. Today I'm 6'56. I turned, it's my birthday today. I think I'm 6'2. I think that's right.

Denise (01:00:16.574)
Picture.

Denise (01:00:24.638)
56! Happy birthday! 56.

Todd Turner (01:00:28.846)
I'm still 6'2", I've not shrunk yet. I'm claiming 6'2", and if I wore boots, I'd be 6'3". But I just say 6'2", because I'm 6'2". When you're over 6'', you don't have to lie. It's all the people shorter than 6'', they're the liars.

Denise (01:00:37.822)
That's funny.

Denise (01:00:43.24)
See, and I think I go, cause tall women, so, I mean, I always wear some kind of wedge, but I try to lie the other way, cause I think men, know, well, they get intimidated or they don't, you know, or they're that borderline. So I, I bear, I only, you know, five, 10, and yeah. So the opposite, see? So it's just that first impression.

Todd Turner (01:00:56.398)
This short under six foot.

Todd Turner (01:01:02.742)
I'll hunch. I'll hunch over for you.

Denise (01:01:11.728)
of what we put out there that yeah, we just, want to be, and I don't want to even say, cause I could honestly care less, but ultimately when you're on it, you want to be picked. You want to be the one that's picked. But after you've been on it for years, I'm like, I could care less. I get on dating, you know, once, I don't know, once a week, like when I'm in the bathroom or something like that, I'm like,

Todd Turner (01:01:27.788)
Isn't it funny?

Denise (01:01:40.445)
I that in a while, let me check. You know, where when you were first single, I mean, you, it was your job. You did it. You were in. You were, and now I'm like, I don't know if I've gone on a date in 2025, you know?

Todd Turner (01:01:46.894)
You leave it open.

Todd Turner (01:01:56.142)
Yeah, it's really interesting. You say this. I'm at a point with the apps for me. There's layers of this conversation for those poor souls who have been on the apps. We all know the problems. There's so many layers to the phenomenon of how it works and ghosting or whatever. That's a whole podcast in itself, but I really have come. I'm going to tie this in everything we've been talking about when you work on yourself and you know who you are.

Denise (01:02:06.397)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:02:25.942)
Those seven pictures and that little bio didn't have a shot of telling you who Todd Turner is. don't care what picture upload. don't care what witty little bio thing I put. It's not a fraction of who I am. So sometimes I'll open the app. You just see, and there's times where you're like, I got seven matches and there's other times you get zero and you're a little bit like not one person in Dallas thinks I'm worth a

thumb to the right, not one person else. You get a little ticky, you know, pissy with it because you get offended. But at the same time, I'm like, I almost like to pray like Lord, thank you that there's nobody I'm wasting my time with today. That if they if they don't know who I am or don't want to know who I am good, good. I just saved 100 bucks because I don't have to waste time to find out you're not the person either. So I'm actually okay with that. I actually the less is

Denise (01:02:56.934)
Right.

Denise (01:03:08.689)
That's a good perspective. Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:03:23.746)
Less is more. I'm very intentional about only swiping on who I think honestly this person looks pretty because they put their best pictures forward. Like you said, they look a little witty based on, know, they put nothing I'm left. I don't care if it's Cindy Crawford and it says she's one mile from me. If she has zero bio, I'm like, come on. If you don't want to put any more effort than that, then you're a left.

And I'm like, okay, now that I met you, now you got to pass the test of are you engaging at all? If it's just if you're just barely checking in or I text you and I don't hear something back, then you're not really interested in meeting somebody. So I unmatch people all the time. I'm like, if I text you and you have an answer me and you unmatch because I don't have time for that. And then if I meet you and you have that little witty banner, I turn it into a phone call.

Denise (01:04:00.32)
Yeah.

Denise (01:04:15.028)
Done.

Todd Turner (01:04:22.35)
It's gotta be a phone call and or hopefully a FaceTime. I've made very few exceptions because you can learn so much more about somebody when you can hear them see them and then they pass that test then you meet them and then I would say 99 % of the time the dates go wonderful because we put in the words to know it's going to go wonderful. So I hear you when you've been I've heard people say

Denise (01:04:44.86)
party to the boss.

Yep.

Todd Turner (01:04:50.83)
Oh, I'm just so much better in person or my pictures. I get told all the time. I'm prettier in person. I'm like, that's not my criteria of whether you're prettier in person. So no, I don't want to go with me either. I need to know who you are. Who are you? Cause I've been working on who I am so that I'm not wasting your time. Well, don't waste my time. Like who are you? If you're not willing to be honest and put in the work, then I don't have time to talk to you. I'm too busy with my life.

Denise (01:05:00.7)
There's more to it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Denise (01:05:20.486)
Yeah. I had a question with that one though, I mean, it's serious question. So when you go on and you, you know, don't have anybody that is like you or whatever, do you think you go further and further out of not, like it's not what you focus on? You know what I mean? Like you find your time, like it's a drug. literally,

Todd Turner (01:05:21.571)
three sets.

Denise (01:05:47.74)
If you're getting the hits, even if they're going, well, I mean, that's not, if they go nowhere, you know, you, you check back on, you check back on or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But if you don't, then I think it's back to even our earlier part of this conversation of I'm not getting that from this. I've got to get it somewhere. Where am I going to get it from?

Todd Turner (01:05:57.518)
It's an ego boost. It's an ego boost.

Todd Turner (01:06:11.052)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Denise (01:06:15.737)
I've got to get it from within. So there's something to being single longer is maybe the whole point of this whole thing was I needed to find who Denise was in her own skin and be comfortable before I can ever be something more to someone else.

Todd Turner (01:06:38.062)
Boy, you nailed it. If that mirror, well, no, that's perfect.

Denise (01:06:40.314)
I don't like it. can't say that I love that plan, but it is.

Todd Turner (01:06:46.2)
But it's the right one. If you don't look good in the mirror, if you won't swipe right up the person in the mirror, it doesn't matter what's in the phone. it's who am I? Who am I going to be? What am I working towards? And I think that's the one that frustrates me sometimes is, is I like women who tell me I want to partner with somebody so that we can become something great.

Or I'm here to be your right-hand person. Like, now you, you let me, I'm already trying to go far down the road, but with you, we're to go further. That's the person I'm looking for. Not the person who to repeat and miss little independent. Like I have a really great life. And then, know, I don't need you, but if you want, you know, you want, you want to swipe right. I'll see if you fit. That's not good luck. Good luck for the poor guy.

Denise (01:07:27.581)
Yeah.

Denise (01:07:41.039)
Right?

Right.

Todd Turner (01:07:46.072)
who exchanges his money for that girl's beauty and peace. What a mess that's going to be superficial as all get out. I don't want that. I want a partner that we are one plus one is three. That's what I want. And I don't want to settle for the for anything else. And so once again, yeah, I saw back to the I want to really unlock what you said. Get the mirror, right?

Denise (01:08:08.367)
Bye.

Denise (01:08:15.599)
Yep.

Todd Turner (01:08:15.726)
Get yourself right. Find your new identity. That takes time. Being on the app, staying busy, doesn't do it. You've got to have some quiet alone time to reflect, to work, to put in the healing. It's not easy. It's not like you get a divorce, you go to therapy for two months and then you're ready. It's a journey. I think I've said it before. I thought I'd be married within a year or two. Here I am at seven.

And I'm like, I'm not even done. Like I don't even know when I reached a line that's far enough down the road that I'd be like, man, I got my crap. I don't think I'm going to have it. We're Christians. We're sanctification goes till I lay in that gasket. I'm never done growing. I'm never done trying to be Christ-like. I'm never done working on myself. So I think I'm far enough along to be good, a good partner.

Denise (01:08:54.746)
Thank you.

Todd Turner (01:09:13.878)
And to me, that's the criteria is I'm not perfect, but I'm ready to pour in if you're ready to pour in and two people are ready. It can happen. But you gotta go at them.

Denise (01:09:24.666)
Right, right, and I feel, yeah, they both have to pour into all of that. Some of the people that I admire, their relationships and I watch it, it's that. It's not that he waits on her hand and buys her tons of gifts, does all of that. It's he is complimenting and pouring into her.

as much as she is into him and it just makes this beautiful connection and that's what I feel people need to wait for and

Todd Turner (01:10:07.342)
I keep saying this and I never look it up. I need to look this data up. They say that the second marriage divorce rates are higher, but my argument to that is the people who were rebounding that divorce rates high. But if you look at people who get married and they wait years and they do the work, I've like those marriages probably have way better chance of success because they're like, I'm not marrying for the wrong reasons.

Denise (01:10:17.218)
Yeah.

Denise (01:10:22.574)
Mm.

Todd Turner (01:10:36.462)
I'm going to be I've already apologized to my ex wife for the things I've that caused harm to our marriage. I already apologize. The new person is not going to get those mistakes. I fixed them. I'm working on them. I've identified them like my next marriage is going to be better than my first doesn't mean that it's because my ex is so bad that the next one's better. Not that attitude. It's because they're getting a better version of Todd.

that she didn't get. And I hope they're going to be a better wife to me than their poor ex-husband got to. And that now we don't have to have we don't have kids because we're an empty nest. Now we're not tired and I got to go do this thing with the kids and they're they're not mom first. They're my wife first. Like I feel like this is the best time to get married and I'm so excited about the next marriage. I don't go in with a

Denise (01:11:25.731)
Right. Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:11:34.654)
there's a higher chance of divorce. Like, no, no, no. I'm like, dude, we have the best chance to make something glorious here because if you have two people who put in the work, who don't does that anything else to focus on, but each other, what a dangerous combination.

Denise (01:11:51.462)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I totally agree.

Todd Turner (01:11:56.714)
I want to wrap up with this. So I quoted Ray Wiley Hubbard first and Shakespeare second. And here's Chuck Swindoll. I'm going read this. It says, I love all over the place. That's sort of me. I read it all. I think on Easter, I post on my Facebook stories. Every morning I put on a record and I play a record. I don't know if you noticed that lately.

Denise (01:12:06.808)
It was hot.

Denise (01:12:19.072)
Yes, with your new place. Yeah, that whole setup.

Todd Turner (01:12:22.606)
But even on Easter, think I probably had Wailing Jennings play. don't, don't, Beastie Boys, like I don't time a day. I'm not very good at that. It's just whatever I'm in the mood for. That's what I play. I record it. And that's what I listen to on the patio because I can move my speaker. But I do, listen to records every day. And so I'm a little bit country. I'm a little bit rock and roll. So Ray Wiley Hubbard, Chuck Swindle. For whom God uses most effectively have been hammered.

Denise (01:12:51.768)
Mm.

Todd Turner (01:12:52.014)
filed and tempered in the furnace of trials and heartache. Like God does best after he crushes somebody. And divorce is trauma. It's a crushing. It's not only the crushing of a marriage, it's the crushing of a person. And you can come out of the other side in a really good spot if you live in the crushing.

and build back up correctly. You really can. You're to have something great. And so as I said before, my ex, I hate that my family was destroyed by marriage. I invite divorce. I hate that that happened, but I would not. I know me. I know exactly where I'd be. I'd be at way more. I'd be lazier. I would be sitting on couch. I've just been at hunt more. I do just do the old me.

Denise (01:13:22.741)
Yep.

Denise (01:13:48.431)
Mm-hmm.

Todd Turner (01:13:50.462)
I got to the newbie by being crushed and it ain't it sucks. it sucks in the middle of it. But on the other side, I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that I am who I am and I would have never got here because I've been too lazy to get here before I was forced.

Denise (01:14:04.535)
I agree. I totally agree with that. I mean, I think of like, you know, how diamonds are come put under that extreme, extreme pressure. And I think what I've learned through it is instead of just rushing it, just you have to just go through it. You just have to just allow it.

Todd Turner (01:14:09.24)
So.

Denise (01:14:33.794)
to happen because of who, yeah, there just isn't. No matter what Google tells you, yeah, no matter the triggers, that's all part of it. It's all part of it making you who you are. And I believe God does have an absolute brilliant plan. And for those that are having to wait, as I have to remind myself, is

Todd Turner (01:14:34.934)
No time tables. No time. That's right. Yeah. Don't trust Google. It does not know.

Denise (01:15:04.023)
if and when that person comes that it just goes now I understand why I had to go through or why I waited. I get it. I get it now. Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:15:10.444)
Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:15:17.978)
I don't believe in soulmates because it doesn't make sense because you're married once and then, your next one was their first one, not your soulmate. And your second one was like, it's a, I was born in Florida, but my soulmates in North Dakota, I'll never meet them. Like it's a fault. It's like the dogs go to heaven. No, don't. Like it's, think about it. All our pets don't follow us around in heaven. Like that little alligator you had when he was, when you were two.

Denise (01:15:36.183)
Todd Turner (01:15:44.258)
He's going to be in heaven waiting on you because God says all pets go to heaven and you got to take it whether you want him or not. He was your pet for five minutes. Like it makes no sense. Say, say with soulmates, soulmates make no sense. I do not believe in soulmates, but I do believe in a God who is literally providential and he is you're either sovereign or you're not. God doesn't just know what's going on. He orchestrates things. So I do believe that there can be somebody out there for me that

that when we get together, like you said, you have a clear vision of stuff. Well, that person, I hope the Lord's preparing them for me. Well, that means I should be preparing for them. So I do need to get my crap together so that the day when they see me, they're like, there he is. There he is. That's the guy I've been waiting on. I like his soul. I like his heart. I like stuff about him. And then you quit looking like, he lives in an apartment with his...

Denise (01:16:25.11)
And being prepared. Yeah.

Todd Turner (01:16:43.918)
you know, signing he wears flat bill hats. Yeah, that's another thing. Yeah, that never cuts his hair. It goes back to what we saying a minute ago about the about women's role. Like, I love I've hung out with women who see men and they're like, oh, he's single. How do you know? I can just tell by the way he dressed. has no woman at home told him not to leave the house like that. You know, because y'all just have built a certain way. And I know for a fact, I dress single.

Denise (01:16:47.704)
Doesn't cut his hair.

Todd Turner (01:17:11.598)
My sister to tell my are you wearing those single blue jeans?

Denise (01:17:14.395)
You just posted a picture of you and your sister at the star and I'm like, why is he wearing sweats to the star? Why is he wearing his sweatpants?

Todd Turner (01:17:24.258)
Yeah. You do that. You know what, you know why I wore them? They're comfortable. And I didn't think I was going to the stars game. I was just going down there to drop them off and we bought tickets on the way. And I thought, screw it. Let's go ahead. So we went in, but you know what I didn't say, I'm weird. What do people think if I wore it? Yeah. Screw it. We went in. Yeah. You were judging me. Yeah. Well, thank goodness you didn't text me and tell me to get alive. So I appreciate that.

Denise (01:17:26.463)
Cause you're comfortable.

Denise (01:17:37.909)
Good for you.

Denise (01:17:45.075)
that even though I did go, why is he wearing sweats?

Todd Turner (01:17:53.358)
All right. So if you're listening, go look on Todd Turner.com and there is a class that I have that you might be interested in. It's very low cost, but it is the different steps in divorce recovery. And one of these is building your new identity. And I'm probably going to take this video and literally put it up in there just, know, cause there people who take that that haven't seen this. So I'll put this episode in there as well. So Denise, thank you for taking your time. This won't be our last one.

We rambled for 20 minutes on dating and we weren't even trying. So I know we got hours. Yeah, we got it. Thanks for sharing your time and effort. And it's been fun to sort of watch you grow with me and learning how to get our single legs. So thanks a lot.

Denise (01:18:25.459)
We weren't supposed to. Yeah, no.

Denise (01:18:37.749)
Thank you.