Is There Hope After Heartbreak?

When everything you've built appears fractured, seeing a clear path forward feels nearly impossible.

Overview of Divorce Issues: In this special feature, host Todd Turner sits down with guest Victory Lyric to talk through finding hope and personal renewal after life's devastating blows. We look directly at the difficult question of how our ideas of faith and expectations evolve when a lifetime marriage breaks apart. This discussion addresses the theological challenges of navigating bad things happening to good people, finding the right balance of acknowledging real pain without getting stuck in a victim mentality, and learning to let your vocabulary build a path toward growth.

Bullet Points:

• Reevaluating 'God's Good': Moving beyond the idea that "good" always means comfort.
• Avoiding Cheap Theology: Why we need to stop using platitudes to dismiss complex trauma.
• Becoming the Help You Needed: Using your own scars as credentials to lead others through their healing.
• Modeling Forgiveness for Your Children: Why demonstrating grace is a powerful lesson for your kids during divorce.
• Let Them 'Effing' Fish: Understanding that grace means letting others process trauma on their own terms.

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Transcript

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Okay. And I'm gonna do it that way. Okay. All right. I'll do an intro right here because basically, I'm gonna do something that will help with the hook, and then I'll roll it into. Into the introduction, so. All right, here we go. Divorce is brutal, but as christians, this journey can really disrupt our theology and our understanding of how this world works. From our sense of justice to what is exactly good. All things work together for good. We have to wrestle with perfect and permissive will, God's will versus our own. This difficult journey of healing after divorce in a broken world is quite challenging. So today I brought in a guest, victory lyric from Revive studios, whose ministry is helping men and women reset after dealing with disappointment. Welcome to the show. Hi. Nice to see you, Todd. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh, so great. I'm so glad you're here. This is. This is one of the complex topics that I deal with a little bit of my podcast, but literally, it's your ministry. So I'm just. I'm glad to dive deeper because it's. It, you know, we go through our divorce, we go for any disappointment. But in my case, my podcast is aimed at people dealing with the post effects of a divorce. And sometimes we deal with the divorce, the problem, whatever happened, and we deal with our life reset, which is already complicated enough, but lingering over us is normally a challenge to our theology, our mindset, because as christians, we all went in through our marriages with this covenant idea of like, oh, yeah, God's going to bless this, and we're going to live happily ever after and grow our family and do whatever. And when things come crumbling down, we have to look and say, wait a minute, I made some assumptions that aren't right, and we don't always hopefully reset correctly, and it causes us even more trauma. Am I getting that right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, I like to call it the death of the american dream. Literally have a chapter in my book about that coming out soon. And it is. It's like this american dream that we were sold, you know, even as a child. I mean, goodness help us. You know, the Disney movie the Barbies are playing with, you know, Barbie and Ken, they're happily ever after, you know, that kind of thing. And so it's built that way inside of us. And we certainly didn't come from a generation of parents and grandparents that experienced a lot of divorce. So when it happens, it is extremely, you know, life altering. It's just your. Your mind goes from this person is my actual family to, will never be apart, to, whoa. We were just almost enemies in court, you know, and, and there's a devastation about that. And now we need the parent children. Are you serious? You know, there's a lot that goes on. There's so many levels of disappointment, Todd, not just that original loss of the relationship, but what we thought our life would be like. Yeah, it's a, it's a crumbling of a dream. And I talk about that, too, all the time, is that we had. It's not just, you're getting to your point. It's not that you're just signing a sheet of paper and you're moving out of houses. It's crushed dreams, crushed goals, activities. All these things that you're used to are all gone. And you've got to have a healthy reset as a person. But even as a Christian, you have to have a reset of like, wait a minute. What is this world? What are we living in? This world's broken. And how am I supposed to live in this broken world? Because I thought some people think, oh, well, if you do this, this and this, God will bless you accordingly. And it's like, it's bad theology. It's bad theology. And people get challenged with their bad theology because we, I think as Americans, we get told all the time, well, when something's good, it's God's blessing, so therefore something bad, it's God's curse. And the Bible, pretty clear about it, rains on the just and unjust. And sometimes it really crushes people to their core is to say that it's like a church growing, oh, well, the Lord's blessing us because we're growing. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Like, you can't measure things by what's happening to you. That was the problem with Job's friend. They thought God was cursing him because something bad happened. God's like, that is horrible theology. Oh, Todd, it is so prevalent in, you know, in, in the church world. If you do this and do this and do this, then God will do this and this and this. And it's, it's this teaching people how to live in this legalistic mindset and that God owes me something. If I do more, be more, say more, do more, be more better, whatever. And the reality is that is what is causing so, so much disappointment in christians. You know, people who were raised up in that, and then when they experience a major trauma like divorce is, it's, it just pulls your theology, your, your grounding right from under you. And the Bible talks about not building your house on the sand. Well, we built it on the sand because we built it on the belief system that God owed us something if we did certain things. But there is no doing in the relationship with God. He already did it all, you know? And so it's. It's just a. It's a devastating belief system, and it can really, you know, destroy your walk with God unless, you know, you let him to rebuild you in your mindset, you know? No, no. 100%. Okay, so let's. In order for us to go further, let's stop down on you for a minute. Like, how did you learn this lesson? Tell me a little bit about your story and then how you now have turned your hurt into a ministry. Right. It's. You had to go through it first in order to echo your learnings. Tell us about your backstory and how you overcame your disappointment. Absolutely. Well, I went through a divorce from an individual that was a wonderful man of God, an amazing father, you know, and. And he was so close to my family. We had multiple. Multiple businesses together, and those businesses, unfortunately, were just too much weight on him, and he kind of had what I would call, like a. I don't know, like a breakdown, and, you know, just wasn't himself anymore and became kind of, you know, there is, you know, abusive and that kind of thing. And so, you know, the. The Lord, I would never have ended it. I was praying and praying and praying and praying, y'all, and saying, oh, God, please heal him. Oh, God, fix this thing. Oh, Lord, you could do it. And I remember the first time I ever heard God loud. I mean, not like an impression on your heart, but like a voice, no, stop. And I'm like, okay. Well, I mean, but, Lord, I did all the things I'm praying. I have the power of a praying wife book right here. I mean, like, seriously, I did. And he said, no more. And stop. And at that moment, he cut off all of the feelings I had toward this person, the feelings of, I have to make this work. It has to stay together. It was not healthy for me, and it was within 24 hours that the police made him move out, leave. And so, you know, I had, of course, a lot of trauma with. With all of that going on, but I also had businesses that we had together that I had to manage. And unfortunately, when we're talking about the loss of dreams, I mean, I lost my husband, my kids lost their father. We lost the family unit, this. This picture of. Of godliness that my. My, you know, generations had painted for me that if you're married and you're in a church and you're serving. That makes you good. In God's eyes, that's a godly person, right? All the things I had to have, all the things in order. Never mind that I had christian businesses. You know, I was at the pinnacle of awesome, right? But it all came crashing down, and so, you know, a lot of devastation in that time, and I had to close down businesses and kind of bring it way down to what was manageable for me. And. And I realized a lot of things about myself, you know, that I was a lot weaker than I thought and then also a lot stronger than I thought. So there were a lot of things I didn't know how to do that he was doing for the family, you know? And so how does one mow a lawn? This kind of things. I didn't know you're supposed to get a sticker on your car. You know, I didn't know anything about that. I thought they would just send it in the mail or I just leave that same one. Like, I mean, there was just stuff that I didn't know that he was doing, and that was, you know, that was challenging, as well, because it's just like, a whole, like, mind blown in every area. You know, we met when I was 18, so I grew up with this person, and we were together 19 years. So. So it was. It was a big loss. It was a loss of a family member, you know, not. Not somebody that you know, that you married, but you didn't take it seriously. Our family gets married, and that is forever. You know, that's how I believed. So how did you. So your world got literally turned upside down. You're struggling with just the reaction to it, right? Like, I got to register my car. I got a. How am I going to pay bills? Like, all the stuff. But where did you reset? Like, what. What was your journey to say? Maybe my theology was wrong. Maybe the way I looked at the world was wrong. Like, I feel like as we react to our divorces, sometimes we just have that numbing staring out the window of the reset. But there's also, like I say, the theological reset of, like, what I thought was true has been turned upside down, not just of my marriage, but my view on life. How did you grow on that? Oh, yes. Well, I. You know, sometimes when something happens that's devastating like that. Like, a person changes that's in your life, and. And it's. It's like a night and day difference, you know? Um, there's a huge, like, loss of trust. Just trust in everything, you know, everything that you believed, because this person could never hurt a fly. And now he did. Like, you know, it didn't make any sense. So I remember one day I was on the phone talking with my aunt, and I was blaming myself, like, well, what? I mean, maybe I caused this. I mean, what did I do to cause him to want to be violent to me? And I. You know, it's just like, you're just. Your brain is trying to find something to grab hold of because nothing makes sense anymore. And I was processing that. She. Hold on. Hold on a second. She said, let's be realistic here. You need to realize that other people have choices and that God's love allows us to make choices and that they are. There's nothing you could do better to make that person choose to do the right thing. You know, people get choices in life, but that's God's love for us, because otherwise, if we didn't get a choice, it would be a prison, wouldn't it? Yeah. And so that was the beginning of that moment where. Boom. And she said, what did you choose? And I was like, what do you mean, what did I choose? She's like, you chose to stay married. You chose to go to counseling. You chose to pray, you chose to work on all those things. And this person chose to go out with women. This person chose to abuse this. But, you know, and this person chose different things than what you chose, but God can't control. Is not going to control their choices. And so, you know, that's where my theology was wrong. You know, in. In that I thought if I did and prayed all the right things, it would make God change their mind and choices. No, no, they can make a choice. And. And so that. That was kind of where the light came on. Yeah. And it's also freeing that I think there's a healthy balance between, hey, what did I do wrong? What could I do better, right. And almost no divorces are 100% someone's fault and zero somebody else's. Right. There's. It may be 50 50, 60 40, 95. Right. There's always a part we can own on our side. Yeah. And then there's also that freeing part to say it doesn't mean that what I did is I'm fully responsible because they have their part, too. And so what you were saying is you had to really reset and see the difference between, yes, I did the right thing as much as I could. I'm sure you failed in some areas, but you don't have to own the burden of that marriage dissipating. Right. And you don't have to carry the shame of, oh, because I did this. Oh, my goodness, how much shame did I put upon my family to be the one divorced person, you know? And then it's just. It was just awful, that thought process. And it's like, no, somebody else made choices, too, you know? And you can't. You can't make them do anything. So, yeah, that was the. The beginning of the reset, so. All right, so go a little bit further down the road, like, so, you know, I don't want to jump all the way to your book and your ministry, but, yeah, there's got to be, like, you've defined it as disappointment. Like, it's a great phrase, disappointment like you thought x. And you're. That's what disappointment is, is when you have an expectation that isn't met. And then, so it's like, do you live in the disappointment or do you live in that? You need to check your expectations. And I think that's sort of where that's so interesting with divorce, because you put your finger on it a minute ago, is that we make a lot of assumptions about people, and we make a lot of assumptions about our relationship, that we're in a marriage. Like, okay, no matter what happens, we're going to make it through, and then it doesn't happen. And you're, like, the disappointment of that. Of like, oh, well, we tried so hard and it didn't work out. Like, the idea that there's no justice on this side of the earth, I think, was a huge lesson for me, is knowing that there will be no justice to what caused my marriage to dissolve on this side of heaven. It won't be. And I had to chew on that for a long time and just give it to God. No, I understand. I do. Well, I will tell you that there was quite a gap. I once saw this episode of Elevation Church where Stephen Burke talks about, like, the space between what, you know, God spoke and where and where you're at now and how different those two spaces are. And there's this gap between. And in recent months, I feel like the Lord has just brought me. Okay, in the beginning, whenever the divorce was first occurring, the separation was occurring and whatnot, and the Lord started to give me vision and hope and dream for the future. I think he's so kind to do that during the midst of loss, because he's not going to leave you there. There's more. And he began to speak to me about my real name, which is victory, but. And what he calls me. But what I felt like and what the whole divorce made me feel like was like this small, and I felt like a victim. And so my reality was a victim. And where he had me going was victory. And so he was, you know, pulling me to that space. And in pulling me to that space, he was showing me more things about hope for the future and what that looked like, what I looked like. And so I think that I'm moving along that path. It was a journey from. Well, from victim to victory, but from feeling as though I was small and insignificant and unworthy. And I think I might have mentioned this to you before, but the Lord asked me to empty my hands of unworthy so that I could receive, because now my hands are open. Victory. And receive his promises and receive his hope and future for me. But as long as I was in that space of I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough, etcetera, then I couldn't receive his promises for me. Yeah. So tell you a little story? I. Yeah, go ahead. Well, what do we tell you? Story. Okay, well, yeah, hold on 1 second. Hold that thought. I'll forget this little moment right here. And that is this, um, the idea of where's the theological balance between not being a victim, that where you're crushed, like, oh, life is over and woe is me, and I'm going to go to my grave with the big divorce sign on my chest. But also, I think it's semi healthy to acknowledge that we are a victim of living in a broken world. Like, we don't live in the Garden of Eden. We do live in a broken world. Therefore, broken things happen and our marriages got broken. And that is true. We are a victim of that. But it's not the same kind of victim. That's the negative victim. Right, right. Yes. Well, I mean, there's a victim, like a person has been victimized, you know, you were robbed in an alley, you've been victimized. Okay? And there's a difference between that and taking on a victim mindset. Yeah. So woe is me and why bother? Nothing matters anyway. I mean, that's the place we do a lot of damage. That's the place where people in their own lives and harm themselves, you know? And so there's. There's a balance there between learning how to face disappointment and, you know, I feel like the lord's given me kind of a picture of a valley of disappointment. So it's a valley, it's, it's low. There are heels on the side, and here we are, and we can walk through it with him, kind of like that pilgrim's progress. You know, there's a. There's a road, and then there's two paths, and there's three paths, and they break off. But we're walking through that valley with him, and it's dark and it's not comfortable, and it is unknown, and you can't see forward in the path, and there's a lot of feelings. And I feel like the Lord wants us to walk through that valley with him and say, I don't like this. I'm scared. I'm so disappointed that I don't see this bright future in front of me. I don't see now my, my husband and I at my kids graduations and us holding our grandkids and whatnot. I don't see what I thought my life was going to be. I can't see any like God. And I am so disappointed. I'm disappointed because I am piled up to here. We're trying to figure out how to pay bills and take care of two sons, and I'm just one woman, you know, that kind of thing. And so learning to voice those things to the Lord, not toxic positivity. Oh, I did that. Oh, I've done all that toxic positivity. I mean, it's so Nate, it's such a negative thing that we're taught in the church world is to be so positive and always turn it to grateful, but that is going to crush your soul, because the Lord wants to bind up the brokenhearted, not bind up those who are faking happiness, but bind up the brokenhearted. He's near to the brokenhearted. You know, he said he will walk. Yeah. That we walk through the valley of the shadow of death. We will walk through the valley of the shadow of death. That's what that grief is, you know, the grief that we're experiencing. Yeah, yeah. We sell the joy. We sell the joy as christians, like, oh, if we're a Christian, we should be joyful all the time. And it's like, no, there's a time for the sorrow. There's a time for the brokenness, and it's okay. And it would be so much nicer. We go to our churches and just come with our sackcloth and ashes and be real versus, oh, I'm a Christian. I should be happy today, and everything should be going well, and blessings, blessings, blessings. It's just not realistic. And I love the toxic positivity. That's a great phrase, because that's what a lot of churches do, or they'll do it in the service, maybe when you get to small groups or whatever to get a little bit more real, but it's still this fakeness and the big large groups versus just real acknowledgement that we live in a broken world and things are broken and something in our life is part of that. Okay. I feel like we are. We're striding so well in a conversation, but I need to backtrack and let you tell your story before we forget. We'll get the story back. Okay? Sorry. That was a long rabbit trail, but it was really good. And I just want to make sure you get your story. I was telling you the story. You don't remember what it was about? Well, we were talking about your journey. I know what story it is, but I don't know why I was telling you the story. I definitely do. I definitely do, guys. So the situation was I was working on myself and go into therapy, and so I had this amazing christian therapist, and he was not your normal, let's sit here and talk about every finite detail of everything that happened. No, we would both pray before we came in, and then we would wait on the Lord. And it was a very prophetic kind of a therapy. And he would sometimes say, like, okay, I see you here, and this and that is happening, and why is that happening? And then God would meet us there and heal places we didn't need to talk about every detail, you know, because I was scared to go into therapy because I thought they're gonna, like, wreck me with every detail. And I'm just. I can't deal with that, you know? But the Lord was really kind, and he's always a gentleman that way, you know, in healing. And so I went in this day, though, and right beforehand, I had, you know, talking about God giving you, like, hope and a future and showing you pieces sometimes. And I had gone in right before. I had seen this picture of me on a white, white stage. Like, the whole room was white. And there I was preaching to, like, thousands of women. Well, I go into therapy and we talk about a few different things, and then he's praying. He says, um, so why do I see you on a stage talking to all these women? And it's a white stage, and he's like, there are, like, thousands. And I got up, I kid you not, taught it. I got up and I grabbed my purse and I was in tears, and I said, what did I want from me? I was, like, shaking, like, furious, you know, and I left because, you know, I felt this small, and a person that's this crushed and in their whole life is devastated and everything is a disappointment. When God starts to give you vision, sometimes you're pretty angry because you're like, no, I don't trust that, you know, my marriage was supposed to be, you know, fine, and I don't, you know, I just don't trust that anything's gonna be good. Maybe nothing is good. You know, it was a really. Yeah, it was really hard to, you know, have the Lord giving me vision when I didn't want it. It felt too heavy for me. And so tell you, um, yes, about a month ago, I went out to the trails, and I used to run the trails and do circles. And I don't know if you know the book the circle maker from Mark Battistelli. Don't know. It's amazing book. But anyway, so he talks about walking circles and putting your prayers in circle. Well, I did that for, like, nine years as God would give me vision of my future ministry building and whatnot. And I would. I would pray those things into the circle of that trail because I run trails. And so nine years, I mean, there's a gazillion prayers in there. So about. Yeah, about it. And so, y'all, I had a devastation where my church closed during COVID and a bunch of stuff happened, and I lost a bunch of people. And it was just really traumatic time. And so I gave up trying to build this ministry and make it happen. That was, I guess, about four years ago. So there was a time period where I wouldn't go to the truth. And my aunt called me one day, and she's like, why are you not going there? And I'm like, I don't know. She's like, is it because all those prayers, all your dreams are in the circle and you don't want to go face them? I'm like, yep. So I did. I started going again, but it always felt like they're still there. Like they weren't, you know? So about a month ago, I went out to the trails, and I was running around it, and all of a sudden, God says, they're still there. And I'm like, what do you mean they're still there? And he says, they're still in there in that circle. And I'm like, thinking, oh, yay. Is that, like, a good thing? No, that's not good. That's not a good thing. And I'm like, what's the reason? You know? And he's like, you got to let him go to me. Like, all that time, you were trying to build the ministry and do all the things that I showed you, but yet it wasn't your responsibility to do all those things. You were doing more things for me, just like doing all the marriage so that God would, you know, make it work. I was doing all the things because I was unworthy, so he couldn't possibly give it to me. I had to work for it. Right? That's how my brain was working, and that's how a lot of our brains work, you know, and that's how we get ourselves into way more discouragement and disappointment, you know? No, no. I love that. How do you. How did you personally balance. This is probably. This is not just to you. This is to everybody. That balance between trust and doing, meaning God does. You know, we have to till the garden. We have to pull the weeds. We got to do our part, but then we also have to hold it loose so that he can do his part. Right. It's not like, well, lord, I got it. We. I hope you bless what I'm doing, and at the same time, you don't just sit back and hope God blows an opportunity against your window sill while you sit and do nothing. So, you know, where. Where was the part between you trusting God to move you forward with your life and your ministry and you putting some elbow grease into it, as well? Well, I think that the difference is a mindset. So I'll tell you the rest of what happened with. With the trails, and then I'll tell you. You know, and that'll explain it. That will give it, like, full clarity. And so. So I went back out there this past week, and I was running around it. We had so much rain, and I couldn't go for a few weeks. So, anyway, so I was then running around there, and it was like, they're not here anymore. The prayers are not sitting. There's not a heaviness in the middle of the circle anymore. They're not here anymore. And I had let them go. I said, your kingdom come. Your will be done. And if there are crummy ones in there, lord, because, I mean, nine years when I had some pain and struggles, there's, like, some crummy prayers in there that I don't even want that stuff. So, you know, please delete the ones that are not what I need. Right. So, anyway, so I left there, and then I had called my aunt. Well, first I was walking around the house, and I was asking the Lord, like, why were they still there? And what was going on there? And some of what I feel like he was showing me was it had a lot to do with when I started putting them in there. I was victim. I wasn't Victor yet. I didn't even. I didn't really want them. I wanted to do what God wanted because I wanted him to be happy with me. And yet I didn't really want those things because it was too heavy for me, too much for me, because I felt small and crushed and unworthy. And so that was part of it. So I called my aunt, and she was saying, you know, if you were bearing the weight of making all that happen on your unworthy shoulders, it's no wonder you crumbled under it and said, forget this ministry. I don't want anything to do with it. Right. It's no wonder you didn't release those prayers. So I was like, that's interesting. And I was walking around the house, and I felt like that the Lord was just saying to me a certain scripture, and we'll grab it right quick. But here we go. God's promises are yes and amen. I'm sure you know that scripture. Second Corinthians 120. And so I was like, okay. But I always understood it. As God says yes and amen to the promises he gave us. But hold on. We also say yes and amen. And so I was like, okay, that's interesting. So I call my dad. I'm like, dad, tell me about what you think of this. What say you to this story, dad? He's like, okay, so hold on. And so he gives me. Of course, he starts with, life and death are in the power of the tongue. Okay? And I have notes here, so I'm just gonna kind of, like, chat with you about them for a minute because it's so good. Okay. And I feel like it's, like, life altering once your brain gets it. And so he said, without our words, we're not affecting our lives. So we get there. He said, you never declared. You just asked. You just asked. Oh, God, make this happen. Oh, God, make this happen. Oh, Lord. Help me, oh, Lord. And so I didn't declare. So we went on a journey to mark 1122 through 24. But basically, Jesus told the fig tree to die. You know, I don't know if you remember that story, but anyway, there's a part in that scripture passage that says, have faith in God. And he's like, so, you know, have faith in God, right? He's like, no. In Hebrew, it's translated, have the faith of God. Think about that for a second. I mean, let that sink in. Have the faith of God. So when we sit in prayer with him and we say, lord, thy kingdom come, and I will be done, you know, we're letting him impress upon us the desires he already placed inside of us. And then once we come to that space of those are the desires that he placed inside of us, then we can say, okay, yes, I agree with that. He said, and when we agree with it, then we speak it out, too. You know, Lord, I agree with that. Yes, in Jesus name, I will be on a stage with thousands of women. And it's. It brings us into the same faith as God. So we join and we partner with him at that point. And then when we say something about our daily bread, you know, it's like, what is our daily bread, Lord? Well, that has to do with what is the wisdom. What is the next step that you want me to take? So what is the daily bread for those desires that you want to accomplish on this earth that I agree with you on? And so, coming into agreement with him, rather than just, like, asking, we're now able to declare that into the earth and. And take that as our revelation. And so I thought it was just beautiful because it's like, that's why your prayers, you know, didn't go up until you said, thy kingdom come. I want what you want, God. I want to. Yes. To those things. Yes. And so it just was, you know, just absolutely beautiful to watch that whole kind of story come together over the last few days. And anyway. No, no, that's beautiful. It's really funny. I would say I struggle, I guess I would say I ponder a life. I believe there are 100% moments where God intervenes. Let me use Moses as an example, right? There was tons of slaves. God did not call and tell them at a burning bush to go do something like, it wasn't like everybody had the opportunity. God literally called Moses to let my people go. He empowered him, he enabled him. And. And so. But Moses isn't. We all can't look at that and say, well, God, what's your burning bush moment? God's like, I didn't give you one. I think there are times where God allows us the free will. So we're like, in the garden. It's like, we have free will to do what we want. Sort of what you talked about earlier. You know, he could have said, no way, man. Yeah. I think God was going to make sure he didn't. But. But for my discussion sake, it is. Sometimes people say, I'm thinking about moving to New York, but I'm really praying over it. And then, you know, but I could move to Utah and I'm praying over, lord, show me which way I should go. And I think sometimes God's like, neither are sin. I'll, you know, not every decision's left versus right. Or let me say that differently. Not every decision is right versus wrong. Sometimes it's left versus right, meaning it doesn't mean God saying New York is right and Detroit is wrong. It's is if it fits under my rules and regulations. In other words, are you doing anything illegal? Are you violating my law? Are you violating my will? If not, you have freedom. If you move to New York, I'll bless it or not or whatever. And so where's that? I think sometimes in the conservative christian world, there are people who really struggle about, you know, God said this to me. God said this. And I'm going to affirm this and quote it and make it happen with my words and my thoughts. And other people are like, well, what if that moment is not a God moment? It's just like a free will moment. And so I ponder, like, I love stories like yours. I love them. I'm fascinated by them. And at the same time, I'm also a little cautious of telling everybody to go find your moment, name it and claim it. I'm not saying that's, no, I don't believe it. Claim it. I know, I know I reversed that. But that idea of affirming something and God's like, well, yeah, if you want to go make a ministry of this, go see. That's sort of where I am with them and helping people heal. I don't always know if there's God moments in what you choose to do. I would say God has blessed us with free will and if we are in his will, his will can be very wide. Like, are you loving your neighbor? Are you doing, are you, are you doing the, are you staying underneath God's laws and principles? Then you have a lot of freedom at the same time. I'm so jealous of people who have a vision and they work the vision and they, and they pause and wait on God to open doors for that vision. Like, I'm intrigued by it. And I also don't know if I agree that everybody has that opportunity for something that special because I also think God creates different personality types. But you're a very entrepreneurial, spirit minded and some people aren't. Some people have a personality type that this is foreign to them. They would never go do something like this. And I don't think God's asking them to. And, no, I agree. I think that even still, when you're in prayer and you're asking the Lord about his heart and his will, it doesn't have to be big. It can be like an individual in your church that he keeps placing on your heart, and you're getting. That's the desire of your heart. Like, this person, there's something about this girl. She needs something, you know? And I'm drawn to her. And then later, you find out, oh, she's suffering great depression, and she really needed a friend. And so at that same moment, the daily bread is, Lord, this is on my heart. I know it's on your heart. I agree. She needs love. What do we do? Like, what steps can I take? I don't want to break her out. You know, I'm not showing up at our house with donuts this morning, you know, like. And so it's. It's little things. And the little things are what adds up in God's kingdom. It's not about doing the big things. It's walk. It's about walking through each individual door that he opens for you because he made you a certain way. Like, I mean, your heart for divorce is something really special. You have no reason to be jealous of anybody else's dreams and passions, because this is something beautiful that God placed in you, and you just keep walking through those doors, and that's a beautiful, magnificent thing to take care of those people who are hurting like we have been, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely. Great answer. What would you say? I mean, to your point, divorce is messy. It's layered. Recovery is layered. But what would you say if you had the small elevator speech with somebody that, you know, what, what. What is the wrong lens that people need to take off? And then what's the right one to put on when it comes to the disappointment of your life after a divorce? Like, what, what would you tell somebody who you might see in a month, but you're gonna plant a seed before you see them? Like, what's that little seed to say? Here's what you need to sit in and contemplate and remove this mask and put on this mask or this lens. What. What do you tell people? Can it be put in a nutshell like that? Goodness. I know. I'm like, that's a lot of lenses, right? Well, yeah, it's so layered. It's so layered. But I mean, in general, like, if you had to give somebody your back, the back cover of your book copy of just disappointment. Like, what is the. What is the heart of what you're trying to tell people of how to reset after disappointment? I would first say this is for a moment, you know, and yes, it's going to affect you, most likely for many years, if not the rest of your life. And that a pressure to be okay really quick and a pressure to feel better right away is going to create a circumstance. Circumstances, and as I call them, land minds. And I know you like that word, too. You're going to create landmines for yourself that are going to create so much more trauma and disappointment if you just run ahead trying to create positivity and get past the pain of this too quickly. It's okay to sit in it. It's okay to, um. I mean, I. I started running. I would put on angry music and run off the pissed off, you know, and so it's okay to feel angry. It's okay to, you know, to cry. Okay. You know, it's okay to sometimes be glad you've got. You know what I mean? Like, there's things that, you know, you need to feel the feels and voice them out and get them out of you, because if you don't get them out of you and you just push them down, then they're going to stay with you for a long time and you won't be able to move forward. And so that's what I would discuss. Really? No, 100%. I'll add one more thing to that, and it's a phrase I've sort of come up with recently, is sometimes when a relationship breaks, we think solving it is getting in a better relationship. Oh, yeah. But that's not. The broken relationship isn't success. The opposite of broken relationship isn't a good relationship. It's getting yourself centered and healthy. God will, you'll decide whether you get another partner or not. That's not where you're going. You're going from. You were coupled, you were yoked. Now you're unyoked. And so what does an unyoked you look like? And everything you just said is right, is how do you get healthy? You sit and you breathe and you feel and you love yourself, right? You care for yourself. You give yourself compassion to say, you know, this is a really, really hard moment. Maybe I do just need to take a nap, you know, and not be fine and try to go out so I can be better all of a sudden, like, overnight. Yeah, be a boss girl or boss, you know, like, hey, I've got this I'm not affected by that. Or you try to show your ex, look at me, I'm happier. No, no. What a waste of time. What a waste of energy. Well, yes, and I'm sorry, but this one really, it really harmed me. Is the belief system that it's all going to be redeemed and restored and there's something and someone so much better for you. Okay? That is a toxic thing to say to a person. And now all they're doing is rushing out there trying to find the better to fix the trauma, the better. It's not going to fix the trauma. You are still a trauma victim trying to go into a new relationship and you're going to destroy it. You know, you're a hundred percent. You're a hundred percent right. And I'm going to make an analogy. It's, I'm going to blend it with analogy. I use all the time. That's like being in a car wreck and you've totaled your car. You're bloody, laying on a gurney, and your friend walks by and says, can you imagine how great your next car is going to be? What are we talking about that for? Like, that's the least of our concerns is our next car. It's living the. Let's go find another car. Another car? Like, that's, that's right. Yeah. Let's flip this joint and go find a new car. Like, what in the world? It's, it's horrible, okay? Pressure to have it all redeemed and restored. I mean, it's like he can redeem and restore you. That's right. You know, like all that, all of your loss, the pain, the grief that, you know, and bring healing and life back into you, into where you're in love with yourself and in love with the Lord again, you know? Yes. No, no. It's really interesting. I need to mature this thought, but I've never really put the semantics in it. But God is a God of restoration. And though our marriages may not be restored, he can restore us. And there's that semantics of like, God is in the restoration business. And I think some christians hear that, like, oh, yeah, maybe he'll restore your marriage. I'm like, that's not the restoration I'm asking for. I'm asking for the restoration of me. You know, if he restores a marriage, he restores one. I mean, I, that one frustrates me because churches are so into protecting marriage that even when you're divorced, people are like, you think you'll ever get back together? Like, like, maybe God that people pray for it. I'm like, would you quit praying for that? Like, I'm not praying for that. That's so important to them is, oh, God's a God of restoration. Yeah. It's like, they need it. They need it. I want to be restored. I want, in this broken world, I want the Lord to work on me, and I want to draw closer to him, and I want to work on my sanctification, not the sanctification of my marriage. Right. Yeah. That one frustrates me, because I think some christians just fall back into that. I'll be praying for you, too. And I'm like, well, pray for her and pray for me, but don't be praying for us. Right. Yeah. And as you grow, like, the process of this great loss creates a lot of growth. I mean, you know, the person I was married was a person who had a lot of thought processes about other people that were not particularly kind. I. You know, I've been through so much since that time that I have so much compassion and so little judgment, just. Just this. I'm this other person, and I don't fit in that box. I'm, you know, the massive amount of love that's here, it doesn't fit in the box of where, of who I used to be, so I don't fit in that space anymore. And, you know, the only. I think sometimes we're thinking, oh, well, marriage is number one. It's so important that it's beyond, you know, even what the. The marriage can be destroying the person. And the person is what God needs. You know, he wants to use you on this planet to do amazing things for, you know, for his kingdom. And, you know, if I'm crushed and destroyed, I'm not much good. That's right. For the kingdom of the Lord. I'm certainly not out there loving and having, you know, an open heart. So I'm grateful. I didn't. I wouldn't have chosen divorce. I wouldn't have chosen any of that. But looking back on it, I wouldn't change it. Maybe for my children. I wish I could change something about it, but I wouldn't change it for me, because I love who I've become through that heartbreak and through all that I had to walk through me. Yeah, I say the same thing. It's like, I. I mean, in a perfect world, I'd still be married. Um, but at the same time, I don't believe I'd ever would become the person I am. Had I been married, I would have never been sanctified I don't know if I love that word, but. Because you never reach sanctification. But I would have never known myself and grown in the ways that I've grown because of the tragedy. And so I am appreciative of that. But it doesn't mean I would have wished it. Or in the phrase, you know, God's got something better for you. It's like, okay. Even whether they're mean a person or whatever, like, no, we live in a broken world. Like, you know, some things are just tragic and it's okay that they're tragic. Yeah. But I am glad that I am happy where I'm at. It doesn't mean that I am saying that God orchestrated that, because I think that's bad theology, too. Yeah, absolutely. Did not orchestrate it, but. But the fact that it occurred, he used it like you talked about, used it all for our good, you know, to. And use those moments to. To heal, to heal us, to change us, to open our hearts to other people we wouldn't have seen, you know, or had compassion for. So beautiful. I want to end with this. You hit on something. I think we're going to regurgitate some of the things we said. But what does that mean? Meaning, I'm going to give you an example. I mean, I'm going to get you to. I want to hear your thoughts on the word good, because I think that's what, what christians get wrong a lot is, you know, that idea, sort of like the car wreck victim. How do you tell him, oh, everything worked better for good. Well, I'm in a wheelchair now, right. So how. What do you mean? Work together for good? Good. I can see good on this side of heaven. What does good mean? Because not everybody has a romantic story. Some people, literally your lives are. I'm going to use the word destroyed. They're destroyed. That happens. I mean, people. People are in hospitals or they're financially ruined or they're bankrupt, or they go through health problems and literally die. Like there is no rainbow at every pot of gold, at every rainbow, over every rainbow. Like, some people literally aren't quote unquote, better off 3510 years after divorce. They're just not. So it's bad theology to say everybody will find their happily, happily ever after story. So how do we find good? Like, how do you define what does good mean when the Bible says everything works out for good? You know, I. I don't believe that for good is heavily a happily ever after story. Um, I don't believe that that is what the word is talking about there because his ways are higher than my ways. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. The good that has happened. There's a lot that is not good about divorce, but the good that has happened. God cares more about our heart than he does about our circumstances. Of course he cares about your circumstances, but he cares about our heart. And sometimes, unfortunately, a circumstance can take me to the end of myself, and I then am able to turn to him and to his love and to, you know. But we can't imagine that we know what God's version of good is versus our. Our own. We can't comprehend that with the small mind. And so what we can realize is that there are good and beautiful things that he's doing within us, within our hearts, changing us. Less judgment, more humility, you know, the things that matter, because our hearts matter to him more than. More than any of those other things. So that, I mean, that's the best I can possibly say, brian. Yeah, no, I agree with all that. And I'd also say, you know, to your point, God's version of good is different than ours because he knows things we don't know. He hears conversations we don't know. He's working on his providential story that we are. It's not our story. It could be generations down the line that we're not even aware of. That's 100% right. So God's working bigger. But I'd also tell people individually who wanted to find good for them. Anything that draws you closer to Christ is good. Anything that takes you away is bad. So, once again, I don't care whether you moved to New York or Detroit. I don't care. I don't think God cares always. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he tells, I want you in New York. I've got a providential reason. I want you there, and you have free will. And does one decision pull you away? Does one decision put you toward, well, then that's the one you did. That's the good draw. Draw near is always good. I agree. I agree. And when you're. When you're unyoked, when you leave a spouse, after all the pain, after all the mess, you do have this. You've regained a unique ability to just make it about you and God like, you don't have the burden. I'm going to call it that. The burden of a spouse who they're. When they're cold, you got to go get a blanket. You know, they want the temperature of this or they want to eat that, and you don't like it. Like, once you're free, I hear my friends tell me all the time about, you know, I hear them call their wives, and I got to get home right now, or my wife wants me to do this, and I'm like, I forgot what that's like. I live a life of, I can do whatever I want when I want. And I think Paul says that in scripture, like, it's so when you're single, you have the ability to serve the Lord in a way. You don't have to worry about an extra person. And it's sort of nice. It is. It is. And there's also that space of, like, if a person, you know, really does desire to have a mate, that this is the time to spend with you and God, that's just the two of you. And so that you become the person, you know, that that is full, fully, who they need to be, you know, complete, so that when you do meet that other person, you're not creating yet a duplicate of the last situation. That's right. Delight in the Lord. You know, delight in the Lord and he'll give you the desires of your heart. I mean, yes, but we have to delight in him and spending that time with him and letting him change us and, you know, like, like you mentioned before and maybe in another conversation we had, it's like, as long as we're going down that road and enjoying ourselves and the Lord, you know, we're walking down that road, then that is oftentimes where you might meet somebody who's on the same path as you that might have the same, you know, calling, gifts, talents, enjoyments, you know, so I love that. So, victory, thank you for all this. Would you tell the listeners how they get ahold of you? Like what? I know you have the book coming out. I know you have a YouTube channel. Talk a little bit about how people can learn a little bit more and people who are dealing with disappointment. How do you want them engaged with you? Okay, well, right now, I have a YouTube channel, revive studios, and I'm sure you can include the spelling in the description, but you can also find us on Instagram and Facebook, TikTok and all the things, including podcasts. Yeah, I feel like I'm on, like, 50 platforms, probably am, but at art at revive studios, or you can find me victory lyric on any of those as well. But as far as the. And we have a website, revive studios.com, and that's where you can find information on the book and on our show. And if, you know, if you're an amazing artisan and you have a great God story and you'd love to tell, you know, we're welcoming guests on our show as well, so there's that. But yeah, reach out and we'd love to get you connected to the shows and to the book and all of that and, you know, help you on your journey. Love it. Love it. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your insight. And we'll put links on the podcast, and this will be on YouTube as well, and we'll put links as well. But thank you so much. Thanks for what you're doing with your ministry. It's just those of us who are further down the road can really help people avoid some landmines along the way. And I think this mindset shift that people need help them in all the other recovery aspects of their journey, because if you, if you heal too fast or you hear wrongly, you're just putting a scab over something that's it's not going to heal correctly. And I think dealing with disappointment is such a huge obstacle that all of us have to deal with, especially as christians, before we get on with our other healing. Agreed. Agreed. Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And thank you, guys. Yeah, blessings all.