Losing Church Friends: A Candid Look at Religious Social Dynamics

Join us in a raw and revealing session on the 'UnYoked Podcast' as host Todd Turner teams up with guest Carrie Vitt in Season 2, Episode 3, titled "Losing Friends." In this intimate conversation, which delves deep into the personal upheaval following a divorce, we peel back the layers of church relationships, societal judgments, and the quest for genuine connection.

Timestamps:

- [00:01:15] Todd Turner's disillusion with the Bible as a self-help guide

- [00:04:40] The stigma around male emotion and friendship

- [00:08:10] Losing friends and the quest for authenticity post-divorce, with personal insights from Todd and Carrie

- [00:14:30] Rumors in the crosshairs: Trusting the truth in times of trial

- [00:19:55] Defying societal and cultural religious norms: Staying true to one's heart

- [00:26:40] Friendship dynamics in flux: The evolution of coed camaraderie after a breakup

- [00:33:20] Supportive vs. Judgmental: Friends who stand by you in the storm

- [00:38:50] Singlehood and suspicion: The single woman's struggle within married circles

- [00:43:35] Divorce's double edge: Losing a spouse and friend, and the complexities of keeping mutual friends

- [00:51:10] A rally cry for men's groups: Craving connection beyond the altar

Transcript

0:00

Before we talk about the friend group and the church group and the couple groups, I want to talk about the friendship of your spouse. Like, to me, that was probably one of the hardest things for me to deal with was losing a best friend. And I know sometimes we're talking, well, divorce, of course you're losing your best, you're losing your spouse. And then now what do we talk about? Losing friends. But I think starting with your partner, it's your life partner. I know this isn't true for everybody. That's why I want a different perspective on it. But I lost the person that I not only love, but I talked to every day and they knew we had goals together and they were my confidant that you least thought was a confidant. And then you're betrayed, if you will, for whatever reason, that means that you feel betrayed and you lose this person that you trust, that you value their opinion, that you check in with on most every life event that goes on, and that person is gone. It just feels. Besides whatever divorce means, I just feel that loss of a friendship really hurts people. I don't know if people define that they see that loss, but anyway, I don't know if you. Do you feel that way? I don't. Because you didn't have that relationship? Not like that. Yeah. No. I mean, at the beginning I felt like we were best friends, but that quickly turned and. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't somebody that I felt like I could really trust and really go to and it would really. So that bond didn't break because it didn't develop. It really didn't. I mean, looking back when I was in it, I would have been like, oh, my gosh, she's my best friend. Right. But I also wouldn't have been speaking from reality. Yeah, well, yeah. You graded differently now. Yeah. Dysfunctional families, dysfunctional relationships when you're in them. That's a relationship. Yeah. That's all. You know, everybody thinks your parents are great. Yeah. Because aren't all parents. Don't all parents? The cops come every Friday night. No, sorry, Bob, that's not true. But you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. So I didn't have that kind of loss. It was more like when we separated, it was more like a relief. Wow, interesting. Yeah, mine was. Boy, this is therapy right here. Even the other day I've got news of somebody I knew in Australia, a friend of mine whose wife passed away and I was going to reach out to my ex. I was like, she knew him and didn't know her. And I thought, yeah, I don't need to tell her. I don't need to tell her anymore. But my brain just went to, well, she wouldn't need to want to know that, maybe. But I was like, yeah, but that's what you tell your friend. We're not friends anymore. We're not. And so even now, five years later, I still jump into friend mode. Interesting. Yeah. Because you go back to certain relationships or certain memories. There's been times I've reached out before, like, hey, I'm at this restaurant that we used to love and whatever. Sometimes you do that. But, yeah, to me, that was a major loss in the divorce, was losing a best friend. And then I feel it's hard to empathize with somebody. I know somebody for a fact. They told me the story. Their ex cheated on her with her best friend. Yeah. She lost two best friends. Yeah. That would be horrible. Yeah. Your two best friends betrayed you at once. Right. How do you even process. That's a double punch. The person you're supposed to go to and tell them, guess what my husband did. And who knows what order they found out? Because, sure, yeah. Then you may have told them. They're like, oh, no way. That sorry piece of credit. She's the one sleeping with you, right? I can't even imagine. Okay, so there's that for some of us. And then let's talk about the couple friends. I think this is when you're married. Normally your friends are couples because you're a couple. Yeah. Who hangs out sometimes it happens. Right. You have a single friend. But in general, I think couples are friends with couples. Well, when you get divorced, that couple doesn't have a couple friend anymore. Right. And you put, I'm going to use the word you, but you put them in a situation of like, well, this doesn't fit our lifestyle, our needs. We don't want the drama. And a lot of people back away. And I think it's hard for us divorcees to process because our brains are like, well, that's my friends. And Steve's the jerk. Why are they talking to me? They should be mad at him and support me. And the answer is, that's not the way they. Sure. They're not seeing it that way. It's hard to process why that phenomenon happens. But I can get it. If you're couple friends, then you're couple friends. It's not like it's just the girl and the girl or the guy or the guy that are friends like you're couple friends. And I think it also different. It's different. And I also think it puts them in a really bad situation. When you say, well, the girls will go talk to the girl, and the guys will go talk to the guy, well, that doesn't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. And if it does, it's dysfunctional, because then they all have to come home and say, well, Steve said, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, Cindy said. And then now that puts them in a he said, she said. And once again, they didn't sign up for this. It's your divorce, not theirs. Even though they may love you or at least hung out with you. But that's one of the downsides of divorce, is the ripple effects into the various friendships. And I think when we're losing all our. When everything we know to be true, everything we were working for is gone. And you say, I just need my friends. At the very least, I have my friends. And your friends are like, now, you. Know. It'S a double punch. And then that creates a second phenomenon of, well, I'll just tell them everything, and then they'll know why they should like me. And I think that's a horrible thing to do. Yeah, that's not something I think you should do. Yeah. To try to turn everybody against you. Absolutely not. I don't think you should try and turn anybody against your ex. It's just like, you show up as your authentic self, you sharing about what's going on with you, and if you need help or advice, you talk to them, but not trying to turn anybody against anybody. Right. That's not how the Lord calls us to walk through such a weird situation. It is weird. A weird situation. Did you lose church friends? Non church friends. Did you all have. We used to have. I raised my kids in a small town, so we had sports. It was a sport. Right. So I lost the lawn chair friends. The bleacher friends. Yeah. You know, like, we're all going out to eat before we go to the tournament. We all hung out all in the same hotel for that basketball tournament, and every one of them fell away. Every last person that we hung out with, gone. Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of military friends. Those were all pretty much gone. Church friends. Yeah. That was wiped. I'm just being honest. I'd had a couple of girlfriends. A couple of girlfriends, but not like we didn't go to church together. One I'd known for forever and one I'd met when I was in Florida. And they are friends. To this day. They still call me we are great, great friends, and they stuck with me. But it was surprising that, especially the church friends, it was just like, oh, I kind of turned around, and I felt like I didn't have anybody that was really listening and kind of not listening, like, with an eye of, like, you know what I mean? They don't want to get dirty. Do they not understand it? Do they just like, oh, well, you've got some stuff to go through, and you're broken, and so you all just go be broken. I think it's because it's divorce in the church, right? We're not supposed to be getting divorced. Right. So I think that a lot of people that aren't going through that, they've never really thought through. They haven't processed. They have not processed it. They don't want to have those conversations. They don't want. Obviously, you don't want to encourage somebody to get a divorce, right? So I feel like it does put them in a weird situation of, like, I don't even know how to talk to this person. I don't even know what it's like. A heroin addict, is it not? It's like, well, I don't want to do heroin. Well, I don't want to know about what heroin addicts do. All. Don't. They don't empathize well, because they don't empathize well. They haven't walked down the road, and it's just so easy to go to. God hates divorce. Okay. Got it, Bob. Got it. Thank you. I hate it, too. Me too. But I had one. Sure would love your help. Right? So I think that that's probably. That's my guess. I've never been in that situation, honestly. But I think that's my guess. When I look back on the people that just kind of floated away, I'm like, I think that might have been why. Plus, you never know what they're hearing. Great points that they were hearing did bubble back to me, and I'm like, oh, well, then that kind of makes sense why they wouldn't want to be talking to me. You know what I mean? You nailed something there. I heard something through the grapevine about me. I'm like, oh, if you all think that, no wonder you're not. No wonder you don't want to talk to me, right? That's not even true. Where did you hear it? Where they heard it. I know where they heard it, and I'm not going to go fix it because I had to live with the rumors, and I did. I had to live with the rumors. I think, honestly, that was one of the hardest things because I wanted people to know where I was coming from. I wanted people to understand the truth and what was going on, but I needed to just keep my mouth closed. And I knew that people were looking at me and had these assumptions and had heard things that weren't true. But I just had to be okay with that and know that the Lord would take care of it. That's where I had to. And, you know what? Can I just say really quick? I did that. I kept my mouth closed. And there were a couple people at the very end, before I left Florida, moved back to Texas, that, on their own came to me and they said, we're so now. Now we understand. Now we see it all. And we're so sorry that we didn't stick with you. Okay. Well, that's a nice. Don't get that out of heaven always. Yeah. And so I'm glad that if I could give a piece of advice, it's just, if you just keep your mouth closed, only talk to those people that are really close, the ones that do stick, the few that stick, Lord willing, you're going to have one or two or something like that. And cherish those people, by the way. Yeah. And if you think or you know that things are going, rumors are going, just keep your mouth shut. The Lord will take care of. The Lord will take care of us. Justice is not always served us out of heaven. Right. But God is a just God. Totally. And he says, I got it. Totally. And so he may protect you. And he hears conversations you don't hear. He's got it. And if. So what? So what if a rumor is going around, you don't have to fix it. You don't have to bash the person. Just let it go. And that's embarrassing. I mean, I just remember days where I was like, I don't want to go out of the house. I don't want to go. But I just knew also at the end of the day, am I following, Lord? I just had to check in with myself. Like, all right, lord, am I following you? Am I living in the truth? I'm responsible for me and my actions. And where am I at? What do I need to change? Let it fall where it may especially have a high justice personality. It's hard to let things go because you want to fix it. Like, oh, wow, who said that? Well, I'm going to argue that it's like, no, let God fight your battles and just sit back. Fair enough. When you do have friends that don't abandon. I'm going to use the word abandon. Because it sort of feels it is an abandonment. It's an abandonment for whatever reasons. They heard something, they don't want to be involved. It's too messy for them. They don't know how to do it. They don't empathize well, whatever the reasons. But when you do have that faithful friend who walks through, oh, cherish them. I got closer. I gained a new friend. I've actually gained quite a bit of friends past my divorce because my old disappeared. I have too. Yeah. But I met a guy through it. He's my counselor, but he's a friend now. And, yeah, I cherish them because they empathize well. And I cherish people who don't throw Christianse at me. I think you and I have talked about this before. I don't know, you may disagree with me here. I say it's a concept of cussing. I really resonate with real and raw. Something about finding somebody who speaks the truth. They know how to love you in the mess and they're not full of, well, God says this, don't be anxious. I hear you're anxious right now. Don't be anxious. But people are like, oh, man, I get it, that sucks, or whatever, cuss. Because they're being honest and real. We talk about, it's hard to use the word silver lining and the word divorce at the same time, but I was able to weed out people who really weren't my friends. I found out who my friends were. Yeah. When you go through really hard times, you find out who your friends are. I mean, I had a period before the divorce when I was very sick, and I learned very quickly who wanted. To walk that walk with you. Yeah. And I was abandoned by so many people. Wow. So many people. It's trauma. People like their easy road. And when somebody goes through something, they're like, yeah, I don't want to go through that. I'd say some people may have their trigger points. We don't know what they've been through. Sure. And they're like, I don't own it. Okay, fine, I get it. Right. But people talk with their actions. Right? They may never tell you, hey, I'm going to quit being your friend. They just don't pick up the phone. You don't get invited anymore. Yeah. What a mess. What a mess. Okay, so couple friends. Normally you lose one, you lose both. But I was going to ask you about being a woman. Do you feel like. I think statistics say that you have a different road to walk than I do, and that is women don't normally like a single woman around a couple as much as I'm harmless. But the statistics say women, whether they say it or not, they admit it. If you, in a survey, they do that you are a threat to the marriage or you not imply, whatever that word is that you're a model of. Like, well, she's single. Like, she's available. Where before when you were married, you weren't available. But yeah, it's an interesting deal where people, I've read a lot of books and different surveys about it, but just. As a books are written on this topic. Yes. Okay. Because you're a new threat. Okay. Why would I be a threat? It's a threat. Tell me about that. Well, one, when you're, let's say your marriage is rocky. Okay. Okay. And your friends who are married now are divorced, well, you're showing a path of one. Oh, I guess I could get a divorce. Like you're role modeling something they may not want to deal with. And then also you walk in a room and you are now a single woman. You're not Carrie. You're not Carrie, who I've known with the ring on her finger, who was not a threat. You're married. You're available. If you're like, well, no, I don't want you around my husband. And they may never think that it's a subconscious that women feel more of a threat than men do, at least according to the surveys. Never thought about it ever. Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Did you ever feel that, like, why don't get invited? I mean, have I had the thought of, why don't I get invited? Sure. I mean, I never thought of like, oh, well, it's maybe because they think. I'm a threat, but it could be. Maybe. I don't know. But I've never thought about it ever like that. It's funny. Before I read that, because I read it, I studied this a little bit because I actually feel like women I knew women who got invited on vacations, like they were the third person. They're like, well, we're kind of weird. Yeah, okay, that's weird. And they go swimming and they're like, yeah, they always get invited. I'm like, well, I bet. So. But guy I don't know invites me. I never got invited to. I was never invited as the third anything, ever as a guy. But yet I know girls are. I just haven't even walked down into that situation at all. Interesting. Okay, well, that slides into the second topic, and that is just tribing. I feel like women tribe so much better. So when we're talking about friendships, I think that sort of implies one on one relationships. But tribing is the girls night out. The Bible study group, the come over for a glass of wine, the book club where nobody reads a book, they just bring a bottle of wine. In my neighborhood, they actually go around the table and ask, like, did you read the book? And then they make you talk about it. So I left that one. You all are here to just to drink wine. We literally have to read what we did. That's funny. You're proven by point. But guys, we don't have fake book clubs. We don't have wine clubs. Should. I think that guys shouldn't book clubs or wine clubs, but I think that men should gather more, should be doing those things. And I know that there is a trend and a drive, especially, like, in the christian community, to be doing that and not in the christian community of, like, at church, just men's Bible study. Yeah. I would say. Well, yes, I would say, oh, boy, I got a lot to say on this one. I would say when it comes to churches, there is a push for men to be men and get together or whatever. But I would also say there's an assumption that we're all married. We're all like, this is what, guys, we're going to have a Bible version, how to be a better husband. And it's not for me. I'm single. So there's an assumption that you're a cookie cutter and we're going to talk to you in that way. Or even dad hired how to be a better dad. And there's a 24 year old and they're like, well, that ain't for me. I'm not a dad yet. Right, right. And so I believe the church model is sort of broken, but I do believe there's a push there. There. But I would say individually, like men. Right. They go to their apartments, right? Yeah. They're going to their apartments and they're by themselves and they go to the sports bar by themselves. And they may have a buddy that they go do something with once or whatever, but they don't tribe. I don't see men in packs of four or five going and doing stuff. And I hear you when you say, well, they should. Well, yeah, okay, they should. But they're not. They're not. No, it's true. Yeah. And so there's a lot of lonely, lonely men and when you lose your friend, you lose your spouse. And this is why I try to get men not to isolate because it's. Not good for a man to be alone. It's not good for man to be alone. It's also like, let's be honest, you numb when you don't have that social interaction. You were built for it, we're built for it. So you numb, you can numb with unhealthy relationships, alcohol, pornography, you name it. Men numb because they're like, well, what else am I supposed to do? And they feel alone and whatever, and they don't get together and it's really scary. I'm going to really take it on aside here on this. I hope nobody from old church talks to me. Anyway. They probably not listen to this. And I'm not trying to pick on them, I'm just using them as an example. I'm not going to say their name because 99% of the people listening will not know. But they have this Tuesday morning thing with the men and I don't know what it is because they're like, well, we pray. Well, we Bible study. And we go around the room like, well, okay, but is it a prayer? No, but they pray. Is it a Bible study? Well, sort of. It's whatever book they're going through which has something to do with the Bible. It's like, I don't know what it is, but the men love it because they're like, well, it's men and we're men, and we're talking about men things. I'm like, but I don't know what it is. I never really got into it because I'm like, you're not talking about anything. I'm dealing with x, y, and z, and I need somebody I can talk to about x, y, and z. And if I come to your men's, blah, blah, we're going through the study of David and we walk around like, well, my uncle's got heart surgery next week. Would everybody pray for, this is not, this is not the iron sharpening iron that we claim it is, right? Christians claim it is. They're like, oh, this is men. Men. We're being men. I'm like, blow it out your rear, dude. This is not it. And I get frustrated and I actually feel like I'm blessed because I do have men in my life. There's only one group of us that three of us meet. The rest of them are all one offs, and I love all the one offs. They're great. But I still don't have the tribe and I don't know how to get it. It doesn't fit with married people because they don't get the tribe. They're married. They have other responsibilities of being a husband first, father next, whatever else they got going. And they're doing that church crap. They are because it's the safe thing they're allowed to go do. But people that are single like me, I live a life that my married friends don't have a clue what I deal with. Don't have a clue. Sure. And matter of fact, I'm rambling, but a buddy of mine came to visit me from another state and he's married. And we were out having a pint and some wings or whatever and I got a phone call from my friend group, my new friend group, and they go, hey, we're at this happy hour. You all want to come by? And I said, hey, can you go? Will that put you in an awkward situation with wife? He goes, no, I'll call her and tell her we're going. So we went, so anyway, he got to hang out with us single people for about 2 hours. And we went to the car. I looked at it, I go, how is that? Because I could just tell. Well, sure. Totally different world. His eyes were totally different world. Jaw dropped. He's like, you all live a world. I've never considered what you all think about, what you talk about, what you have to navigate, never entered his mind. I'm like, yeah, that's my point. When I go to church and you're talking about how to be a better dad and how come unfold chairs this week, I'm like, I don't know what I deal with. I have no idea what I go through and I want that tribe of men. It drives me nuts and I wish the church had it. They don't. But I can see in a way kind of why they don't. Because ideally in the church we're going to be married and stuff like that. So it's not like they're like, hey, let's put together these tribes for men that are again, single in their 50s. So I get it. I'm not saying that you wanting that isn't valid. It totally is. It's just like both are true. They are living in a world where they romanticize families at an unhealthy rate, according to the Bible. The Bible does not scream family in a way that we do. We're family first, family friendly family, family, family. The Bible is like, we have men's group and women's group. The Bible's like, 99% of this is written to both of you all. I don't know why you all are separating all this. It applies to both of you. Are you men, are you all loving your neighbors? Women, are. You're loving your neighbors. Well, why don't we just talk about loving our neighbors together? Why do we have all this? You're right, though. I mean, it would be weird to be in a men and women's Bible study. I've never done that before, but it's so, well, true. Why shouldn't we? Why do we act like the 1% like children? Obey your parents. Let's have a whole children's section talking about obeying your parents. That was the only thing they talked to them about. The rest of it applies to all of us. Don't get me started. This is my pet peeve of how we turn the Bible into this self help book for ourselves. So, women, here's all the things that apply to us. Proverbs 31 and or whatever they all are. And it's like the Bible is God's story, telling us his character, his story of redemption, and we're supposed to be learning about him. This isn't about us. And so we do that, and then it permeates into our churches. Like, here's how you can be a better father. Here's how you could be whatever. And there's a guy here in town who's got a new book out about how you can be abundant and a million. He literally puts out how you can be a Christian. You could be a millionaire. Like, he's a pastor of a church. What makes you think God wants you to be a millionaire? Are you insane? Not saying he doesn't. Just not saying he does. That's not what that verse was about. Anyway, this just drives me nuts. But I think the reason I'm frustrated because it affects how we engage with one another and it affects our friendships. And especially as a guy, I just think guys are at a big disadvantage. Matter of fact, I think I told you this before. My avatar of who I speak to on this podcast is a woman in my back of my brain, upper 30 woman, lives in Kansas. I think we talked about that. But when I go look at my YouTube stats, men are my big listeners. I just found this out. Yeah. You know why? Because where are they going to get this? Well, hey, men, go ahead and get. The phone over social media. Just saying hi. Yeah, but it's true. I don't think we have the systems in place. We certainly don't have the traditions in place. I think it's part Christianity and part culture. This idea that men, we pull ourselves up by the bootstrap, we tackle the west, it's us versus the world kind of thing. And it's so fun. Like, in other cultures, like, men hold hands in their culture, we do it like, oh, my God, I would never do that. Really? Why can't you be affectionate with a guy? It doesn't mean you love him, doesn't mean you want to have sex with them, doesn't mean you're attracted to them. But it's that bonding. We are so anti that here, and it permeates into relationships. And what you're able to. Are you supposed to cry with somebody or are you going to wimp because you cried? Yeah. Which goes back to what we were saying before. When you find somebody that stuck by you, appreciate them. I have people I can cuss around that aren't judging me, that are hearing my pain, and I have people that I can cry around and they're like, they'll cry right back with you. And if you don't have one of those, I don't want to be somebody. Like, if you don't have it, go get it. Well, it's not that simple, but I am going to tell you, if you're listening, you don't have that person in your life. Pray about it. Pray that God will send you somebody or look backwards and feel like maybe he did send you somebody and for whatever reason, you didn't cultivate it, because maybe you didn't like what they told you or they did you wrong once or something and you pulled it against them. But maybe you do have that somebody in your life who does truly love you, and they're imperfect, they're going to mess up. But do you need to forgive? Do you need to restore? Do you need to go backwards? I know that I actually had a guy who was divorced. He told me his divorce story, and I empathized with. I was married at the time, and then now that I'm divorced, I had to go back and apologize to like, man, I was a really shitty friend to you. I never thought what you went through. And then now you saw me go through it and you were right there with me and I'm sorry I wasn't with you. Yeah, that's hard to say, but it was true. Wow. Okay, so how do you grade? Is it okay to walk away from an unhealthy friendship? Besides us being abandoned sometimes? I'd also think we run into situations that once we're coming out of divorce, we may find people that aren't good. They're not good people to be friends with or get. Sure, they're hitting you with horrible advice. They're not healthy to hang around. They're trying to get you to go do stupid stuff to numb because that's how they did it. But did you ever have to walk away from anybody versus being after my divorce? Yeah. Or did you really? You got abandoned by everybody. There's nobody left. Fair enough. Left with a couple of people and just kind of run with them. And then more people have come into my life. Yeah. So I have a lot of newer friendships or even friendships from, like I have a friend from high school and we reconnected and she and I get together all the time and another friend that I'd met 15 years ago just kind of randomly and we reconnected when I came back to Texas. And she's one of my closest friends. So it's kind of, yeah, I like. I just back to the ripple effects of divorce. I just want people to know that they're not alone and they're losing their friends. I think some people feel like their situation is the only one. And I'm always like, look out that window. There's 10,000 people who have the same thing that you're going through. Right. And it is a normal, I hate to say it, it's normal for you to lose friends after a divorce. It's normal to feel extra betrayed and it's just something that you have to live with. Navigate. And once again, don't burn bridges. Who knows who comes back, like in your case, with an apology. Sure. And you don't have to try to win them over. You don't have to bash your ex along the way. But making wise friends, I think once again, once you're going through trauma, I think you're just so much. You should be wiser of who you let in. Totally. Yeah, totally. And I let in. I think I've already said I let in real raw people. Now if I smell, this is horrible what I'm going to say. If I smell Pharisee or phariseeical behavior, I'm out. I'm to the point now, of course, I say I got long hair, I got tattoos now, and I'm a conservative christian, but my theology is conservative. My playing the christian game days are over. If I walk up and there's a guy wearing a three piece suit and he's telling me we're going to chickfila. Because we're not going to go to so and so because there's a bar in it. Get out of my face. Like, I don't want that level of Christianity. Does that make sense? Or does that come across really crabby? Be honest with you. No, I mean, the whole three piece suit. Don't go to a bar. I mean, that's so old school. I guess it still happens. Oh, it still happens, but I haven't really experienced that. It depends. I grew up in the Bible belt. I did, too. Yeah. So I remember that. I remember that back in the day of like, oh, my gosh, if you have tattoos now, I laugh at that. I think that's funny, right? There's still just. Well, let's put it this way. I've had people tell me I'm paraphrasing, but I wish I could do what you do. Like this idea, not giving a crap what people think. So even though they may not judge as much as maybe they did 2030 years ago, they still won't do it themselves. They won't do it themselves. I see. Because they're like, well, okay, I'm more tolerant of you, but there's no way. Is that tolerance, though. I think it should just be. I don't like the word tolerance, but anyway. Yeah, well, okay. Well, before you would get the scarlet letter, when we still do it with the divorce stuff, we still have the scarlet letter effect, for whatever reason, you got pregnant before you were married. All the little things that we judge people on. But this idea of, like, I don't want to play the game. In fact, the cussing, to me, to me, that's a metaphor. I'm being literal and metaphorical with the cussing. To me, it is the far right, I guess, would be like, well, let no unclean word come out of your mouth. And it's very literal. Why they totally violate the fourth commandment of taking the Lord's name in vain without. They'll think it means don't say GD. But it means something different. This idea of like, well, we're just going to pretend we don't cuss. And you can cuss in your mind, you can say whatever, but don't cuss because that's not good. And I'm like, when I cuss, 90% of the time, I do it to Jesus right there. He's not up there. Like these words. You can say that word, that's bad, but this one's good. I'm being real. I'm being honest. I think the intention of your heart really matters. Intention of your heart, not the rules. So I just don't like the roles anymore. God doesn't care about your hair. He doesn't care. Did you go see that movie? And you didn't go see that movie again? It's the heart. It's the heart. It's the heart. And so I gravitate to people who see past it all and they're just real and raw and that they aren't pushing you, the agenda, how you vote, even that's another issue. But I think it fits right here is I literally have friends who believe if you love Jesus, there is absolutely no way you can vote for Donald Trump. And then I have people who are Christians, love the Lord, and they're like, there's, how could you vote for Joe Biden? How you can't be a Christian and vote for Joe Biden? And I'm like, well, they both think they're right. They both think they're right because of different mindsets. And my deal is like, can we just be in the middle? Like, how about they're both idiots? Is that like, they both suck for various reasons and they both have some good qualities for various reasons. I just don't like playing the line, the christian line of, if you're a Christian, here's how you should behave. I don't like that. So anyway, I don't know how I got off on the tangent. Other than post divorce, I've become very picky. Who I let in or how far I let them in. Maybe wise, a better word. Maybe wise. Yeah. Think picky sounds a little, well, maybe. A little judgmental and maybe right. Maybe on something with that facts. But I guess you said to challenge you. They are challenging me, but yeah, I just gravitate to real. And that's back to the reset is I wouldn't have the friends I have now had I not been divorced. Not saying God wanted it, but on this side of it, I met some really great people, and it's been wonderful. So I want to finish with this because I think it ties in right here. But coed friendships, that slippery slope. We both say that it's not wise to date too early post divorce because you're not ready. Right. Or whatever. What is your experience and or advice of coed friendships and how to navigate them? That is such a big topic. It's a huge topic. Do I have some friends that are guys that I am regularly in contact with that I'm really good friends with? Yes. Okay. So there's that I think that what's wrong with having friends that are men and women when they're single, right? I would say, yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's good. I think it can be really healthy for me, honestly, it's been very helpful, very healing, because I've been able to build friendships with some men that have shown me that they are kind, that. All men aren't what your ex are. And you wouldn't know that if you. I wouldn't know that with those people. Right. They're kind, they are forgiving, they're not easily angered, just stuff like that. I think it's been incredibly healing for me. Wonderfully healing. I would totally agree with that. I think that, yeah, you do have to be aware that usually one person's probably going to start to maybe have feelings for the other. I mean, there's always that factor. Maybe, but. So you have to be aware facts. But I think that it can be great now. I think that it can be a little tricky. And I think you just have to be aware. I know that I have some guys in my life that I'm really good friends with. And I know that one day, hopefully I find somebody that I am in a serious relationship with that's headed in towards marriage. Well, then will those friendships kind of have to change? Yeah, I think so. They will totally agree. But I know that and I'm willing. To like, but you go in knowing, which only lets those go so deep, which I'm okay with, that some people wouldn't. Some people are on the other fence of it. They were like, that's unhealthy. You should date with intention. And guys, girls, you go sit on the manner. Why can't both be true? Why can't you date with intention and still have opposite sex friends? Yeah, but I think that if you start dating somebody and then you're in a committed relationship, then I think that your opposite sex friendships, that dynamic does need to change. I agree. And here's how I've worded it. I've actually had this conversation with a really good girlfriend of mine, and I told her that I go, I assume that if you ever get married or in a serious relationship, or I do that, I go, here's how I think it'll play out. We introduce. We all go out to dinner. If they like you, right. And if they want to be around you, you get to be around. But if they don't, then I got to say bye. Right. Because I'm not going to do that. To my ex, I've heard people say, buy a new person better, like my friends because they're my friends. I thought, that's not healthy. Now that's very selfish. It's very selfish. And then you're limiting your partner to say, well, they don't like him. Then I don't like you. It's like, that's not a selfless relationship. When you're never going to be able to have a good, strong, committed relationship. Because you're putting people in a box. I know, right? We're full of that. Yeah. Coed has been great for me, too. Partially for what you said is that I've met people who aren't like my wife. And so I was like, oh, okay, well, this is some good traits. And I think every person I meet, I'm going to use the word every, but let's call it 90 something percent. Most everybody I meet, I find a great quality in that. I would say, oh, I like that quality. Like, that's some check. They're really good at x. And so it helps me put together this person. Like, yeah, there are people who have this and you're just saying, okay, well, I'd like to find somebody as that and that. And that's when I look up. Sometimes you're too picky. Like, there is no person that's going to have. That person's the best, plus that person's best with that. But it has been nice just to have deep conversations with people that it doesn't work with guys and guys and girls. And girls do not have the same conversation that guys and girls have. True. And it's wonderful. Yeah. And I love theological conversations between the opposite sex because they're intense. I've enjoyed ours because you have a very feminine lens. Is that a way to say that? Thank you. Yeah, you do take that as. I think it is a compliment. It's a feminine lens on how you see relationships and your part in that. And I'm not trying to get into submissive and whatever all that. I'm trying to get into gender. God's wired me this way and I'm looking for a guy wired this way. I think we'll get into that when we talk about relationships because I think that's something that's broken with divorce is this independence and who has to give it up first. And it's really hard. But that's another topic for another topic. Okay, we'll end this with you're going to lose friends. It's going to suck. You will most likely make new friends. And now be wiser in choosing who they are. And hug that dang person who walked. With you through your, oh, 100%. Hug them, take them to dinner, and let them know how much you appreciate them because their bible says they're worth gold and silver and a bunch of other stuff, too. All right, thank you very much. Thank you.