Unhappily Ever After? The Reality of Christian Marriages on the Brink

Join Todd Turner and special guest Carrie Korem Vitt in the UnYoked Podcast Season 2 Premiere as they dive deep into the heart-wrenching and often taboo topic of divorce within the Christian community [00:00 - 05:00]. With unflinching honesty, they explore the challenges faced by believers trapped between the extremes of enduring unhappy marriages and the ease of falling out of love [05:01 - 10:00]. The episode shines a light on the silent struggles within abusive relationships, as they advocate for a wider support network and trusted counsel [10:01 - 15:00]. Listen in as they reveal the plights of their "avatar," a single Kansas woman, to discuss the stigma and pressure faced by many in similar circumstances [15:01 - 20:00]. They tackle topics from the fears of leaping into the unknown to the intense pressures of religious dogma, always emphasizing the paramount importance of one's well-being [20:01 - 25:00].

Throughout the conversation, Carrie shares her personal journey of feeling crushed in an abusive marriage and the path to finding help and clarity [25:01 - 30:00]. Todd and Carrie discuss the complex ripple effects of divorce, with poignant reflections on the significance of children, community, and the church's role in these challenging times [30:01 - 35:00]. As the discussion progresses, they cautiously dissect the misbeliefs surrounding quick fixes to happiness post-divorce and stress the critical nature of communication in fostering successful marriages [35:01 - 40:00].

The episode also addresses the topic of moving on, understanding one's emotional needs, and the potential pitfalls of dating too soon after a split [40:01 - 45:00]. In the final segment, they contemplate the tension between finding joy amidst brokenness and the necessity of offering more mercy and support to those fighting to mend or responsibly leave their broken marriages [45:01 - 50:00]. This eye-opening and heartfelt episode is a must-listen for those grappling with the complexities of faith and divorce, pulling back the curtain on a subject that is often shrouded in silence within the church.

Don't miss this powerful conversation that strikes at the heart of Christian values, love, and the sometimes harrowing quest for personal peace. Subscribe, share, and embark on this challenging journey with Todd and Ca

Transcript

0:05

Okay. I'm gonna learn so many lessons off this. Okay. When do I get a divorce? When should I get a divorce? Am I allowed to get a divorce? What steps do I take in getting a divorce? Carrie? I feel like christians fall into two camps when it comes to divorce, especially in the Christ world. Don't. Or we've fallen out of love. It's better for the kids. They don't have to grow up in a non loving family. And God wants me to be happy. I feel like those are the two extremes. That's either super easy or super hard. And you and I have talked about it before. Most people don't live in the extremes. The truth is normally in the middle, not in those extremes. But I definitely, when I made episode one, which is my most listened to podcast episode of whether or not should I get a divorce. That means people google that a lot. People listen for podcasts, YouTube videos of that question. It's the question christians struggle with, and I think we struggle differently. So I was talking to both edges. Part of me was talking to the people who were like, it's a sin. I can't, no matter what. And they endure too long. And then I also believe there's people on the other side who are just like, well, he did this, or whatever. He always does this. She always does this, or she did that one thing. And they're easy, quick to leave. And so I spoke to both edges. I don't know. There's a lot of gray in the middle, sure. But what a tough place to be when your life is so miserable that that value made to your friends or family and to God, and you're willing to break it because of the pain you're enduring, or at least you feel you're enduring. What a tough spot to be. Yeah. We'Ve both been there. All I can do is agree with that. Yeah, it's horrible. I call it the staring at the ceiling moments of looking out the window, crying, praying. And I think my thought was, who can I help during that time? Right? Who can I help? And so let's start with the. Because this fits really close to your story. Let's talk to the people, men or women, who are enduring pain. You said that you were challenged by your friends like it's time. But what can trigger someone who's getting beaten, verbally abused? All the things to say. I don't have to put up with this because sometimes they believe that God is going to, like their denomination, Catholicism. I can name a couple of other protestant denominations. They're like, well, I mean, this is a sin. If this didn't happen or this didn't happen, you don't have permission from God. Which I, or even a spouse is having affairs or unaffair. You even hear it in the church where it's like, well, no, you should. Put up with that. Yeah. There's so many caveats. There's so many caveats. But what do you do? How do we, not that anybody's going to listen to us over their pastor. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Because some of those have their flawed theology. Sure. I would say a lot do one because of their denominational influences and, or they're pastors who are married and they don't even know. So their argument is, well, if I suck it up, you suck it up. Yeah. I mean, I think if you're in that kind of a situation, I think widening your circle. Right. Like talking to people that you really trust. Yeah. And it's so funny you say this. I'm back up for a second. When you have a podcast, when you market a product, whatever. When I thought about this, I have an avatar. I don't even know if I've ever told you this. I have an avatar in my mind, a person that I'm talking to. Yeah, sure. And I made this for both genders because I feel like the Bible is for both genders. Isn't it funny how we saw women's group and men's group and people are like, well, here's how God wants men to act. Here's how God wants women. I'm like, I think the rules are the same for 95% of the Bible is written for both of us. Sure. So when people talk about God may be into it, I don't know. Does yours include loving on widows and orphans? Well, mine does too. So how about we're both supposed to. We'll just both do that, right? How about we both. So I have a real beef with that. Anyway, I've already lost my train of thought. I literally have lost my. I went down a rabbit trail and did not pull back. But this idea that gender, that's what it was. The pastor being a male and not having experienced things, it's this idea of like, well, God is. My job is to preach truth. God's up here telling us he values marriage. And as a christian, we should too. And I totally agree with that. But there seems to be only two places in the Bible that talks about abuse. Right. And affairs. And it's like, okay, some people say, no, all divorce is wrong. And then some will say, if you do those. You really have to try to endure it. Yeah. And so then the question becomes, what does that mean? What does that even mean? So I think a lot of people are stuck. So you were talking about widen your influence. There we go. I'm sorry, I need to finish this thought or I will lose it. And that is my avatar. Even though this is built for men and women, was a single lady who lives in Kansas. She's 38, she has a couple of kids and she's married to a deacon. And the deacon is very lording over her at home. Okay. He's wife, submit to your husband kind of guy. And he drinks. Closet drinks. They can't let the baptist church know that he drinks. And then every once in a while he'll hit her when she deserves it. That's it. Only when she deserves it, yeah, and she is miserable. She's abused and she thinks I'm stuck. What will happen if we leave? I live in a small town, I don't even have a job. She feels stuck. I'm talking to her. Yeah, that's who I hope. I know I have men. Listen, sure. But I'm talking to that person because I feel so sorry for somebody being stuck. Feeling stuck. Not being stuck. Feeling stuck. Feeling stuck. Feeling stuck. Yeah. Sorry I interrupt you, but I had to get that out. I took the long way around the world to get to that thought. Right. But anyway, so that's the person I'm aiming at. And I want to let them know that if they're thinking about getting a divorce, they're not a slave to their denominational teaching or that pastor, or their husband for that matter. My argument is when you're physically abused or you see your kids, I mean, grab a suitcase and get the hell out. I'm not saying throw your theology out, but I'm saying you're not throwing your theology out by getting out. Yeah. God didn't ask you to endure getting beat. God didn't ask your kids to go through that. So his theology stays high. God is a God of mercy. Literally. God says he values truth and mercy equally. Pastors value truth sometimes over mercy and they preach from the truth. But I'm here to say, no, God has mercy on you and he is not asking you to endure that nonsense. Yeah, I mean, it was in a book somewhere. I don't know what book it was. So this is not my thought, but I loved it. And it said that a lot of churches, a lot of christians, we value marriage over the health and wellness of the individuals 100% right. So like an individual could be just like being destroyed. Right? But the church a lot of times is saying, well, it doesn't matter. Marriage is more important, not the health and wellness of the individual people. Now, that's not an excuse to just get out. I'm not saying that, but if you look at yourself and you go, okay, I feel like I'm just being crushed. That's important. That is important. And you should widen your circle. You should talk to a counselor, you should talk to a therapist. Don't keep all that to yourself. And I think when a woman is scared to step out and say something, it's really hard, honestly, to make good decisions. Because the best way I could describe what I felt like, it was kind of like my mind was wrapped in gauze and I couldn't see everything totally clearly. You're clouded and you're tired and you're playing a defense mechanism game of just let. What is that, Stockholm syndrome? A little bit of like, I'm just trying to get along or not get beat by saying the wrong thing. So I am just going to try. To yell at, or yell at belittle. Can't get anything right, right? Yeah. Okay. This is part of the reason this podcast exists. Not everybody has a wise friend. It's just true. It's just some people don't see a counselor. I saw a counselor in secret for like a year. That's a good answer. There's somebody you can talk to. There's somebody. There's somebody out there. And I would also say, now, by the way, do I have any experience in this? No, but I do work with sex trafficking organizations. There are a lot of nonprofits out there who will take a woman with her children. Sure. And help them start over, put them on their feet, protect them, and it's like, well, he'll kill me. Well, I mean, unfortunately, yes, that does happen. But in general, you have options. They may not be easy, right? And it may not feel like you. Do, it may not feel like you. Do, and it's good to go talk to someone. I totally agree. Okay, so this is why I have my avatar, because I believe that the deacon is going to hold more weight at his church. So I always tell women and men both, I'm talking to both, but my avatar, the woman, to go talk to their church, I think it's horrible in the way God wants our flocks to work, that it would be horrible for a pastor look up and say, you all getting divorced. I didn't even know you all were having marital problem? That feels not fair to him. Who's supposed to be a protector of his flock. You didn't even give him a chance to help. That's true. And the other part is, if he has horrible theology, he's going to be like, well, are you submitting to your husband? Yeah. When the answer is, well, he's hitting me. Well, yeah, it's like, well, no, he's hitting me. A good pastor would say, come to my house tonight. We're locked in the door, and I'm going to tell Jethro to Jethro. I don't know. That's not my avatar, but I made that up. Sorry, people from Kansas, not all your deacons are named Jethro. But that's how that worked. Okay, so let's talk about the other side for a minute. The quick to divorce people, and I don't know anybody who's really quick. Okay, let's be honest. Most people in general takes a little time, fight to some degree, right? But I would say they may hold their view of marriage a little more looser than some meaning. They use phrases like, well, God just wants me happy. I deserve to be happy. That's not biblical. Not biblical at all, but I hear it. The other one I hear, I'd love you to speak into this, is I don't want my kids to grow up in an unloving home and to see this so that they'll think this is normal and model it. I'm doing it for the kids. I've heard that quite a bit. It's worded a lot of different ways, but it's like, this is best for the kids to get out of this house, and they need to see their mom happy, they need to see their dad happy, or they need to quit all watch all this fighting. Well, my argument would be like, yeah, all that's true. Doesn't mean you got to get a divorce. How about you start acting, right as a married couple, not throw in the towel. Right? I mean, that didn't even cross my mind when I was going through all of it. I think. What's the flip side? Maybe you could show them what it looks like to restore your marriage. Yeah. Give them a success story that when things are tough, here's what that looks like. Right? I mean, that's a better thing for your kids to see than you. Just a pie in the sky. Oh, well, if you're happy, you're living a good life. Yeah. That's a terrible example for a child. Isn't that a tough. Yeah, I'm not saying it's easy. Oh, no. Right. Here's my thing. The theology of this is a tough one, is Christianity screams that because we are all slaves to sin and that we have a redeemer, that we should have joy and this eternal joy, and we should talk about joy, joy, joy. And the tension of that is, well, we live in a broken world, right? So it's like this idea of like, well, the God wants me to be happy and joyful and whatever, and I'm not. Therefore, I'm going to fix my situation to be. It's like. Think you're getting that theology wrong? Yeah. I mean, I think that when I was going through deep, deep, deep valleys where I was like, I can't see in front of me, it is dark. I don't know what's happening. And I really just felt like I was just holding onto the Lord's hand, just like, what's the next step? Just leave me? Because I don't. Yeah. But there was still down in me a joy, knowing that the Lord has me, right? One day I'm going to be with the Lord, right? This isn't the end. And so I think there's that kind of deep seated joy. Not, was I having fun? Absolutely not. Nothing about it was fun. Nothing about it was fun. I was crying my eyes out pretty much every day. I don't know if I would say I was depressed, but just going, you're. In a funk and a fog. It was horrible when I was trying to navigate through and the healing after and all that type of stuff, but I think still, deep down, there was a joy. So I think that we kind of get it misconstrued of, well, I should be happy and I should be having fun and everything should be great, but that's also not even like real life. I mean, let's look at Paul. You know what I mean? He had joy and he was in prison. So no matter what you're walking through, no matter how terrible it is, we can still have joy deep down. Yeah, this is a rabbit trail, but it's part of this theology. The Bible's not a spotlight, not a floodlight. Meaning God doesn't tell us how to raise teenagers. He doesn't even really talk about the difference in genders that he gave us. I wired women this way, so men, therefore, he just leaves a lot of stuff out. Right. We should kind of made a bunch of that stuff up or just kind of figured out what we can figure. Out what we can, right. That's a better way to. I believe the Bible is true, but not all truths in the Bible. God didn't put everything in there. It doesn't mean it's not his truth. He just didn't put it in. I say that to say that when it comes to joy and marriage, whatever, give us just a chapter on marriage. Just one chapter to help us, because. We see this joy, because that's what it is like. Well, Paul was in prison. Okay, well, tell me about Paul's marriage. Did him and his Wife fight? They probably did. Sure. Yeah. And did he come to the table one day just like shaking his head, what's wrong? Oh, my wife, she's so mad. I'm taking all these trips about saying Paul was married or not. I don't know. It's irrelevant. But it's. The point is that the Bible's really, really silent. And there's the vow itself that says, I am going to love this person. Which, by the way, you can love and you can, like, there are seasons for everything, but it's a commitment. And then I guess the question is, when are you allowed. Oh, that's a good way to put it. When are you allowed to break the commitment? And then when are you supposed to endure or how long to endure whatever. Because just because somebody has affair, you may have the right to divorce, doesn't mean you have to. No, I mean, I have some friends that the husband had a divorce and. They had an affair. Sorry. It's okay. I'll just make sure. Sorry. No. Had an affair and they worked through it and they've been happily married. Had more kids after. That's right. All that type of stuff. Because you start your marriage over and it's probably better the second round. Yeah, every story definitely looks different. I mean, could I answer that question of when are you allowed? I can't. There's not. I think. Well, okay, that's another layer to this is I'm a conservative liberal and a liberal conservative. Like, I'm in the middle on stuff. So you're a moderate? Well, I like to think when the Bible's clear, I'm conservative. Okay. When the Bible's not, I take the stance of like, well, God's smart. If he left that vague. I see he knows there's exceptions and so he's not going to give you a rule. Like, he doesn't say, I want everybody to meet at 930 on Sunday morning. Well, he didn't put that in there. You know why? He knows there's plagues and wars. And you can also just meet at 1030 and you can meet. Yeah, whatever. It could be another day. Right. That war is vague. Well, I believe that's sort of the thing, the principle of divorce. He didn't say go get a divorce when these things happen. But I think there's a lot of things that already. This is controversial. There are a longer list of acceptable reasons to get a divorce than just affair, abuse, abandonment and abandonment. Because if you take those further, what is abandonment? Is abandonment. Sexual abandonment? Is abandonment. I left the house. Is abandonment I left the marriage. We're just roommates, right. And abuse. Abuse, what does that mean? Physical abuse, verbal abuse, abuse of the kids, but not me. Right. You know what I mean? It's a slippery, totally slippery. It's an expanded list that most pastors don't really walk down. They just keep the truth part of keep your marriage. Right. And I think I want my cake and eat it, too. I want people to feel free to explore leaving a bad situation, a really bad situation. I want them to dig in and try to fight longer for sure, because the grass is not greener. It's not. And then I want people to really attempt to restore and take their vow really seriously all at the same time. That's a lot to ask, but I. Think you should do that as a Libra. I think those are all three things that you should do before you consider. Do you remember the episode one where I liken the people who are in this tough season of their life? I liken it till 911 where you're at the top of the tower, the world trade. They're burning, you're going to burn to death. You know, you're going to burn to death. And if you jump, you're going to die of hitting concrete at a couple of hundred miles an hour. And there's a point where you stay, stay till that heat gets so bad that you're like, I'll jump. Right? I mean, that's how I felt. I jumped, but I knew the Lord was going to catch me. I just didn't kind of know like when, where. That's exactly right. What is that going to look like? But he's going to catch me. He's going to catch you. It may not look like what you think, so let's talk about that for a minute. Is I screamed, I hoped, in the episode about the grass isn't greener. There's sometimes this idea where you're just in such misery and pain that you just think if I just get away from my wife or my husband or whatever that is, whatever your situation is that I will just be so much happier. I will be away from that pain. And whatever it is, is good. It's good. Better than this. And I'm like, having done it, I'm telling you, because I was so clouded with my day to day agony, I just never thought about what things might be. And now that I've done it, I'm like, oh, this is hard. It's the fire and the frying pan. It's still hot. Very hard. And it's not as simple as, oh, they're out of my life. No. And therefore all my problems are gone. Not at all. You're exchanging a set of problems for something you can't even forecast 100%. And this is part of the reason why I think we both said, you've got to put a lot of time into trying to attempt to save your marriage, because when you go to that next hard, you will look back and say, I wondered if I could have salvaged that marriage. Yeah, I think you want to do every single thing that you can do so that if it gets to the point where you're like, oh, gosh, this is going to end, that, you know, deep down you've done every single thing that you possibly could have done. Yeah. Because you may be in financial run, you may be sitting in your apartment, your kid may be wayward, they may not talk to you ever again or even partially. There's a lot that can happen that no one even thinks through, a lot. And then you're like, all my husband did was just stay gone that one weekend. And I accused him of blah, blah, blah, blah, and whatever, name your thing, right? And you're like, I bet I could have endured that. But you just can't see correctly at the moment, right? It's a really tough ask, and I think it's really tough once you set your mind to go ahead and moving forward. I try to talk so many people out of it. I had a friend that, oh, yeah, I was begging them, like, put in the work. And they're like, well, it's always the other person's fault. And I was like, I remember telling them this, you're dealing with a fruit problem, not a root. You guys hadn't even got to your root problem. And so when you're just arguing, well, you do this. Well, you do this well, it's because you do that that I do this, whatever. And most of them don't even realize that you brought some bad parenting, some cultural problems, some denominational teaching problems, some stuff to your marriage. They did too. And if you all haven't got to some, who are you? And working through some therapy, and you work through some therapy and then you all both work through some therapy, you're just going to live with nonsense. It's amazing everybody doesn't get a divorce, honestly. I guess there are just some instances where true love conquers all. But that's rare. Rare, rare, rare, rare. But there's a lot of dysfunctionality in marriage. And then it brings out these problem situations and people are like, well, you had an affair. I quit. But why did you have an affair? Why do you hit me when you're drunk? Yeah. Why do you drink so much? Right? They're great questions and questions that 100%. Should be asked, should be asked. And then you're like, oh, well, my childhood trauma created this situation and I'm just reacting. Okay, well, now there's something to talk about. My kids. It's so funny. I don't even know if you know this. My son got married four months, four or five months ago. My daughter just got engaged. And then I have another one, which I don't know, we'll see what happens. And even my ex is engaged right now. Like everybody I know engaged. So I only get to speak it to my kids. That's only my business. So with my kids, I'm like, I'm telling you, one of the best advice I could give you is you've got to be a great communicator. Your marriage has such a higher, giant higher chance of failing. If you can't do this, if you can't take thoughts, feelings and emotions and put them into words, that's good communication. And then listen, empathize. And when they put their thoughts, feelings and emotions into words and talk things out, because how will you have an affair? When you say, honey, I am not feeling cherished and here's why. But otherwise, that internal self, you don't talk it out. It's like, oh, well, they always do that. They don't love me anymore. I'm going to go do this or whatever. All the justifications, right? Or all those internal conversations in your head and if you have a bad set of friends and they're like, yeah, well, you oughta, I know people who help their friends cheat. Well, my husband doesn't sleep with me and whatever, and I need that. Well, but then just go do it on the side. It's like, what? How did you ever get there? How did you get there? Well, the answer is you don't take thoughts, emotions and feelings and put them into words very well. And sometimes you think you do. Some people think they're good communicators, but they're really not because in their mind they're screaming it. How did you not know that I'm not feeling loved? Well, I don't know. You didn't never tell me. The last five years of words have never come out of your mouth. So how would I have? How am I supposed to know? How was I supposed to know? And then to them, it's like, well, I was slamming the door and I was doing this. You should have known. I've heard that a lot. You should have known. I'm like, how would I know those behaviors? You're screaming, but that's because you're taking thoughts, feeling emotions. You're putting them into actions. You're not into words. You got to put things into words. And so I'm a big believer in good counseling for couples because it's one thing that if you're having a troubled marriage, to go on a date and have a real talk, and that's good, that's progress. But I don't think if you and I were married and we were having problems, we're going to get so far. But a professional counselor is going to poke in the right places and they're going to bring out, that's what they're trained to do. And I don't think you can really get and find your fruit and root issues without a professional in the room. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know about that. You think you can two intelligent people can work their way there? I think so. Maybe so. Yeah. If you're asking the right questions and you're really caring about digging down into. The root and care enough to do it. Yeah. I want people to know, too, that, especially if you don't have kids, it's not that you have an easier out. Your reasons for divorce aren't any different or biblically any different. No, but when you have kids, that's the other thing about the grass being greener. The ramifications on kids of a divorce is ready, I'm going to say is worse than whatever they're seeing at home. Well, unless I'm seeing means physical abuse, then I disagree with that. Yeah. Physical abuse trumps everything. Yeah. But I would say the effect of divorce is a lifelong effect. Totally. On kids, on everybody. On everybody. The ripple effect goes wide. I know that. I've heard this. This is in my story, and it's also on plenty of other people's is this idea that when you're getting divorced, you're just walking away from that person's, paying their cost you. And you're like, I just want them out of my life. And you don't realize that divorce affects your kids, your mom, your dad, your sister. The ripple effect goes so much wider. And when your brain is justifying, I just want that pain to stop because that person, I need them out of my life. No, it's a tsunami effect. And it not only goes high, it goes long, and it can go decades, it can go generational. It can. And I've talked to so many people who've said, too, that even with their friends, they're like, I was left with no friends. And that happens a lot. It happens a lot. Or you're left without anybody at your church supporting you or standing by your. Side, and you may have to start over a whole new life. I mean, I had to start over a whole new life. You're one of those that you started over. I just start over? Yeah. Of course my family stood by me. Not all families do. No, they don't. They don't. My family 100% stood by me. But a lot of friends. A lot of friends. And a lot of people at church just walked and you don't think that that would happen. And then you're just left going, oh, my gosh. And I say that because I've talked to a lot of people who've had that happen. So I did have one or two friends that really stood by me, called me every day, all those types of things. But your community, you don't realize, a lot of times you're going to be left with not many people around you. Sometimes your brain, when you're in that position, thinks, well, the church will stand by the good person and they'll chastise the bad. It's not that simple. It's not that simple. It really gets complex. One I believe, because churches, once again, I'm not saying, all right, nothing is every church, it's not this way. But this idea that churches are so committed to the church machine, it's Sunday mornings we do this. Here's our worship. We've got a women's leader and a men's leader. They feed the machine. Divorces don't fit in the machine. They don't know what to do with you. They don't know how to speak to you. And their best case scenario is we'll come to church. That's where people love you. What am I supposed to do here? Well, you know, working awanos, you can go to your small group. Like that small group doesn't know anything about my divorce and I'm not bringing it into there. And you're going to go up here and preach about how marriages are for a lifetime. Where do I fit in? And so you could be the right person, like your spouse could be the abuser, they could have the affair or whatever. And you think you're just going to go to church and you'll be okay. No, church is a clunky can be right a lot more often than I would than not true is what I would say. I'm going to say hundreds of people that are single since my divorce. Divorced since my divorce. I can't think. But a handful that didn't have anything to complain about about how church. How their church life was affected, or they had to leave or take a season away or they were highly offended or highly disappointed. I think it's a real issue. Yeah. I think it's an area that they don't know how to deal with people like us yet. We have a whole episode on the church and we'll get into that. I think the reason I want it here is I want to scream to people who are listening, who are considering a divorce or just navigating. That tough solution is like, it's not so easy that you make the decision, you sign a sheet of paper and then he either leaves or we sell the house and we'll live all happily ever after. It's so much more complex than that that it is worth fighting as much as you can, not tolerating stuff you shouldn't tolerate. But it's worth fighting that even if you get a divorce, you can rest in the fact that I gave it all. Why? Everything's burning around you. You can sleep at night and say, well, it's burning around me, but I gave my best not, oh. Things were just tough and I wanted out. Yeah, I knew somebody who. It's a woman, and her story is very much like your horrible husband who deserved to be divorced by a mine. There's not a person in the world that would say, you should have endured that. It was horrible. And I bet she was three years in and she literally was like, I'm thinking about reaching back to my ex. What? And she goes, I think it's better than this. She was so lonely, so brought to nothing financial run. Her kids were wayward. Life was tough. It was tough. And she goes, I just want a husband again. Wow. Just want a husband. Again, I had to talk her off that ledge. Wow. But that's how bad it can be. That's also, too, when we've gone through stuff like that, we do crave the familiar, and that is a hard thing when you have to learn, like, no, I need to choose to be around people that aren't, like, what was familiar for me. It's hard. Well, that's why I call this topic. Well, yeah, that's why I call this the Unyoke podcast, is that it's not a divorce. I use the word unyoke on purpose because it is hard to unyoke. And then let's say you're two, to keep the metaphor going, you're two bulls or ox, and then that doesn't work with the genders. But if you're two bulls. Doesn't work. Doesn't work. But give me some grace here and the yoke comes off. Who's walking down this road? Are you moving over? Are we still rowing? Are we making a garden anymore? Am I allowed to go over here? It's complicated. You've been in lock step, even though you may not have been, but you were yoked. That's where it leads to the problem. You're going this way, they're going this way, and your row looks like this because you're creating a mess. But when you finally decide to un yoke, it is complicated of what that looks like in your life, and then, to your point, what it looks like in your soul. Who are you? I don't like the phrase. I just want to get back to myself. Honey, there is no back to yourself. That person is dead and gone. You've been through trauma in a relationship, and now you're single again. You don't even know who you are. You have to unlearn, relearn and start new. And if you think you do that, in a couple of months, I see people out dating. Dating. I'm like, how can you not date? You don't even know who you are. And if you do, then it's a problem, because what were you doing married while you were sitting here living this single life in your head? True. It's weird. If I find people dating too early, it frustrates me because it's like you're moving on, masking the pain, or you're codependent, and you just need somebody, whatever. You need attention. There's a million things that. That screams the people that are out there too early, or I'm just looking to go have a good time. No, I mean the whole, I'm just out there to have a good time. I don't think that's honoring or respectful of other people. I know you're wasting their time. You're wasting their time and you don't know how you're going to hurt them, right. By kind of wanting to just fill some of your own needs or that little hole in your heart, you know what I mean? That you're wanting filled. Yeah. And then getting out there too early. The stuff that you haven't dealt with is going to come out eventually and it'll come out in probably uglier ways. So it's better to take that time to really dig in and really heal. I'm going to tell a story. There was a girl that I dated and I will tell you this, okay, I should probably say this for another podcast, but it's pertinent right here. And that is, she did not fit the formula in my mind of how long you should take. So I was dating her and I was like, oh, I found out she was less than a year. And I was thinking, I don't want to be to you what happened to me. In other words, I had a person step in with my ex early, what I considered too early. And I don't like talking about my own situation. I don't mean this belittling, I'm just going to say it, okay. But she was probably lonely and he was willing to lean in and so she saw him as a, well, he's a savior. Like, here's somebody who cares about me I can lean on. I will admit it's got to be tough for a woman, even more than a man, to be independent all of a sudden, especially when you don't have a career. It's a tough spot. I'm not blaming or belittling. I'm just saying, here's what happened. And I remember partly thinking, well, I am glad somebody's there to take care of her, right? I don't hate her. Sure, not my responsibility anymore. But then also thought, wait a minute, I got Lord mad at him because I was like, wait a minute, you're coming in, keeping someone busy selfishly when they should be working on themselves and repairing their kids, that should be your focused focus. And so when I was dating this girl, I found out she hadn't been dating a year. I thought, well, I don't want to be that guy to her kids. So I told her, I go, I can't date you. You haven't been divorced long enough. And she goes, well, what if I feel I'm ready, and I go, well, we all feel we're ready. True. I'm not going to tell you, but I'm also going to tell you. That's not a good argument. Yeah, it's not a good argument. Yeah. Well, she found somebody, and she's married, and he's a great guy, and they're living happily ever after. And I so glad. And I always thought, is that the one who got away? Maybe I should have. Yeah. And then I was like, well, no, the ods were good. The ods were just. I mean, I'm glad it worked out. And maybe that was a God thing. I don't know. I don't know. But I did sort of question, like, why did I make up the rule of one year? Like, I made that up. But I just think it's a fairly healthy line in the sand to say, there's no way, if you've been married any significant amount of time, that you will be healed and ready to move on within a year. Right. Is that crazy? I also think. Let's just say. Let's just say two people were separated for five years. Right. You're independent as heck. Yeah. And then they get divorced. Well, then. Okay, then that's an exception. Okay. That's exception because. Yeah, I do think there's a difference. There's some nuances. There's nuances there. But in general, if you've been living somebody married and you just moved out of the house, or they got kicked out of the house, and you're three months into it and you're tired of watching Netflix, you're like, I'm going to get on an app and start swiping. No, do not do that. Do not do that. No. And so here. Why is this on this episode? Because all of you are like, wait a minute, I'm thinking about getting divorced. You are talking about what next is like, yeah, we are. Because if you don't realize how hard next is, then you'll jump easier. Thinking, I'm just getting away from the pain and I'm here to scream. It is a hard road to become, to get unyoked, to live unyoked and find your new purpose in life. And I literally changed the name of this podcast. It was unyoked, the christian divorce. The christian divorce podcast. And I changed it to unyoked living because I want it to be more than just being unyoked. I want to know, what are you going to do now that you're unyoked? Yeah, I want to go further with the idea of what does that living look like? When you're not yoked to somebody, you have a responsibility, especially when you have younger kids. It looks one way, right? You have child responsibilities. But when you're empty nest and you're unyoked, right. And it's just between you and God, well, man, that's exciting. What can you do with your life? Where can you go? How can God use you, and what's your purpose? Because it's not sandwiches and practices. It's true. And your husband wants you to go visit his aunt Myrtle, right? Whatever, in Kansas. And Bubba, whatever I call Jethro, whatever his name. Yeah, we don't have to visit him anymore. But, yeah, it's tough, tough, tough to be in this decision. My heart breaks for people who are trying to decide, when can I give in? When can I give up? When can I throw in the towel? When can I move on? And all I just want to scream is, after you are 100% sure, 101% sure that you've done everything you can, and you've asked for the forgiveness for where you've fouled up and you've tried to fix that to the best of your ability. Sometimes things can't be fixed unless it's a two way street, obviously. But you can do your part, and you can say you're sorry. I know I worked hard of like, hey, I know I have parts in this and I'm sorry, and we'll fix them. Just that attitude of, I'll do whatever it takes, and then if it doesn't work, you're like, well, I did try. It wasn't lip service. You really tried. Then I think the answer is, you have peace. And to recap what you said, going to people with wise counsel, read a book, go to a counselor, whatever you have to do. People say, I can't afford a counselor. My argument is cheaper than a divorce. So whatever it is you're spending on that book, whatever. I think if you want something bad enough, you can figure it out. You can figure it out somehow. Put in the legwork, pray. Pray that God sends you a solution. Totally. The Lord will provide. I actually made a book. I guess this is a little bit of a plug here, but I took the first three chapters of the podcast and made a book. And it's for this moment of when people are like, when can I make that decision? And I just poke a little bit and I also help them through it. Meaning chapter two is like episode two, okay? You've put in the work, you've made the decision. Now what? And here are some of the landmines and some lenses you're going to want to put on, because we are believers, right? I mean, you can go scorched earth. And I'm not saying people don't deserve some scorched earth. There's something your ex did your spouse right now has done that's probably worthy of chastise, ridiculement, justice, there's all kind of stuff. But at the same time, that's not what Jesus calls us to do. And we need to learn how to put on mercy, forgiveness, and grace and navigate your unyoking well. And that's not an easy thing to do with integrity. I don't see a lot of people doing it with integrity. That's right. I totally agree. I see there's a lot of people that they're badmouthing, they're complaining. And not just, I think that you had said, I think in episode one of just, like, be quiet. Like, keep to yourself. Don't get on social media and talk about it. Passive aggressive or not passive aggressive, neither one of them. Stay off of it. None of that's helpful. I don't think. It's not honoring to the Lord. I know it could probably maybe feel good, like, oh, I got this out there. But other people can see through that. If you've been down the road, we know the difference. Yeah. So it's really better to just like, you have your few people you talk to. Keep your circle tight. Keep your circle tight. Lot of prayer, a lot of time in the word, and just take your time. There is no rush. There's no rush unless somebody's getting physically hurt. Okay. But you separate, and then there's no rush. That's true. There's no rush. Fair. I always feel separation. My wounds on separation is when there's affairs, when there's separation for other reasons. I get it. When there's an affair and a separation, it's like green light. All the things you're feeling in bed while you're getting cheated on. Now the person has, oh, it's so much easier. I don't know where you are. You're in an apartment like that. Affairs, to me, and separation do not mix. Yeah. And I'm coming from a totally different situation where separation was very necessary and a good step. I agree with that. You know what broke my heart? I saw this the other day, and it literally, I thought, boy, this is so opposite of what I said in the podcast. They said that the hashtag divorce party is like, this trending hashtag, and they're. Literally, people are having parties. Companies are literally profiting off this idea because they're like, it's an epidemic. And they're like, let's celebrate. Like you're finally single again and now that your best life. And I'm thinking anything to celebrate. I think anybody that celebrates that, that's. Just not especially, like christians. As believers. As believers. It's insane. So when I hear the word or see hashtag divorce part, I was going to. You should be in mourning, if you will. Right. I was mourning. Even if you have every right to get divorced, it's not a good thing. No, not anything to celebrate about. Okay. All right. Well, back to the plug again. If you're in this situation, you want to keep something in your purse. I made the book small. Go order it. Actually, to be honest with you, I wish this book, I don't say this for profitability, but I wish this book was at every church library that when somebody's going, they can just grab it. Because once again, books on marriage are horrible. There was a little one, Chuck Swindell. Did little, like a little pamphlet. Yeah. You might have even been a part of that. But it's a little pamphlet. But it was really helpful. And you can still order. There's, there's good advice. There are good advice. There's bits. But in general, a lot of the analogy that I use a lot is divorce is a car wreck and we survived it. And you're walking in all bloody and you're limping and pastors get up there and say, well, cars aren't supposed to be wrecked. Bad timing, budy, bad timing. But me and my girls are like lying on the side of the road. But we're alive right now. That's right. And so my argument is with church. That's why I do this, is I believe there are ways to have on christian lenses, but I want to up the mercy to equal the truth and help people where they are. That we live in a broken world. I mean, it's been six, 8000 years since the garden. We haven't been perfect in thousands of years. And we're like, well, this is the way the garden was. Like, yeah, but we're 8000 years into sin and brokenness and this is not our world, but we're living in it. And the person that I am married to, we're in a dysfunctional, unhappy, miserable relationship. Do I have to stay in it? And my answer is no, not necessarily. But danger, try to the best of your ability to keep your covenant but they've broken if they've broken the covenant and you're just reacting to it, go with peace, go with grace, but don't just go mad. Don't go mad. That's my argument. All right. So yeah, look for it's on Amazon. You can go to toddturner.com and there will be links there. But that's my hope that somebody goes through this. I've always wanted this podcast to sort of be the what to expect when you're expecting, like the pregnancy book when you're pregnant. Everybody grabs that book. Well, if you're going through a divorce I want people to have something by their side that's not as simple as well, here's a good famous pastor talking about marriage and divorce that doesn't feel pertinent. All right, thank you very much. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks for having me. All right. That was 50 minutes. That was 50 minutes.